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The subtleties in outsourcing using RentACoder

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Re: The subtleties in outsourcing using RentACoder

#11

Post by viraptor »

andrewljohnson wrote: post #7
Ygor wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"They live in Eastern Europe and are poor. You live in America and are rich." OK. I know it wasn't supposed to be anything like that, but this sentence sounds really bad. I actually got the idea that the coding business of any sort can get you in a pretty good position, financially. One of the reasons is the fact that you are not dependent solely on your local market. And there's also the lower cost of living.

I should say "relatively rich." It's true some people in Eastern Europe are wealthy, but their wealthy is the equivalent of our middle class, so it's a different scale. And also, the people getting their start on rent-a-coder aren't the rich ones. I wrote this because of something I saw. A friend of mine has a popular iPhone app, and he was pressuring some overseas consultant to lower the final price for some work be…

No - "people in Eastern Europe" aren't wealthy or not in any way that can be approximated to a whole region. "Middle class" is not comparable. It's just a different market. You earn more money and spend more money, but on average it's the same proportion. There are some differences because of country-specific issues - gas prices are completely different for example.

Talking about "people in Eastern Europe" is just silly... Which country? Estonia is different to Ukraine, which is different to Romania, which is ... Talking about "people in Eastern Europe" is like putting Mexicans and Canadians in a "people in North America" bag (and trying to get some meaningful economic average out of it)

Why does this depend on a country: "he was pressuring some overseas consultant to lower the final price for some work because he wasn't happy with the result". If the result was not right according to the specification, then why not lower the price? If the result was correct, then changing the price is not right. But what does the country have to do with that?

Re: The subtleties in outsourcing using RentACoder

#12

Post by fnid2 »

andreshb wrote: post #10
fnid2 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

don't hire Americans to do commodity work (i.e. PHP CRUD) This is why Americans are saying they are from overseas to get the jobs. If the price is the same, what does it matter where they are from? Speaking a common primary language and being in the same time zone has value. When I offshore work, I send an email and have to wait until the next day to get a response. When the worker is in my timezone and I get quick r…

You should try outsourcing to Latin America then, responses in realtime during office hours.

I've worked with some from Mexico and Argentina. Both are good places to look, so yes, that's a good alternative to distant time zones.

Re: The subtleties in outsourcing using RentACoder

#13

Post by andrewljohnson »

viraptor wrote: post #11
andrewljohnson wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I should say "relatively rich." It's true some people in Eastern Europe are wealthy, but their wealthy is the equivalent of our middle class, so it's a different scale. And also, the people getting their start on rent-a-coder aren't the rich ones. I wrote this because of something I saw. A friend of mine has a popular iPhone app, and he was pressuring some overseas consultant to lower the final price for some work be…

No - "people in Eastern Europe" aren't wealthy or not in any way that can be approximated to a whole region. "Middle class" is not comparable. It's just a different market. You earn more money and spend more money, but on average it's the same proportion. There are some differences because of country-specific issues - gas prices are completely different for example. Talking about "people in Eastern Europe" is just si…

1. People in Eastern Europe can be easily quantified by per capita income. And just because a dollar there goes further, it doesn't mean they have more dollars or can afford the things Americans can.

2. Estonia and the Ukraine are much more similar to each other than any Eastern bloc country is to the US. And I wouldn't lump Canada and Mexico together for discussion, but I would surely lump Mexico in with Central/South America and talk about them.

3. In America, you can agree to a well-defined contract and enforce it in court. Sometimes a buyer shouldn't pay for work completed. If you are dealing with a foreign contractor, neither party has legal protections, the buyer has a lot of leverage and more money, and as such should treat the contractor extremely fairly.

Re: The subtleties in outsourcing using RentACoder

#14

Post by lzm »

scorpioxy wrote: post #8

Interesting article. Some inaccuracies: - "Rentacoder does not have skilled developers from western countries. What it has are freelancers from countries like Romania, India, Pakistan and Russia." Nope. It has developers from all over(I live in Lebanon). Freelance programmers are simply programmers that don't work exclusively for one client. I am guessing you don't mean this in a bad way... - "The availability of par…

I'm from Latin America, and just recently I started using sites like RentACoder/oDesk/Elance. I've found that it is extremely hard for me to get jobs on these sites, especially since I'm not a webdesigner (I'm a C/C++/Python/Java guy). What tips and strategies do you recommend that increase the likelihood of being selected for a job?

Re: The subtleties in outsourcing using RentACoder

#15

Post by mrkurt »

fnid2 wrote: post #5
andrewljohnson wrote: post #4

I've had experience using online sites to source jobs, and I think this advice is right on. Here are some summary points, generalized away from rent-a-coder: * don't hire Americans to do commodity work (i.e. PHP CRUD) * be clear but not ominous in your job description, and include visual mocks if at all possible * don't try and be secretive - no one wants your dumb idea anyways * make sure someone has a decent reputa…

don't hire Americans to do commodity work (i.e. PHP CRUD) This is why Americans are saying they are from overseas to get the jobs. If the price is the same, what does it matter where they are from? Speaking a common primary language and being in the same time zone has value. When I offshore work, I send an email and have to wait until the next day to get a response. When the worker is in my timezone and I get quick r…

If the prices are the same, the American probably isn't as skilled/experienced.

Re: The subtleties in outsourcing using RentACoder

#16

Post by jwr »

andrewljohnson wrote: post #4

I've had experience using online sites to source jobs, and I think this advice is right on. Here are some summary points, generalized away from rent-a-coder: * don't hire Americans to do commodity work (i.e. PHP CRUD) * be clear but not ominous in your job description, and include visual mocks if at all possible * don't try and be secretive - no one wants your dumb idea anyways * make sure someone has a decent reputa…

There is no such thing as "Eastern Europe". That's a silly cliche back from the iron curtain era. Stop using it, as it doesn't make sense in any way. Not economically, not politically, not even geographically.

The rest of the advice is pretty good, though.

Re: The subtleties in outsourcing using RentACoder

#18

Post by jwr »

andrewljohnson wrote: post #13
viraptor wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No - "people in Eastern Europe" aren't wealthy or not in any way that can be approximated to a whole region. "Middle class" is not comparable. It's just a different market. You earn more money and spend more money, but on average it's the same proportion. There are some differences because of country-specific issues - gas prices are completely different for example. Talking about "people in Eastern Europe" is just si…

1. People in Eastern Europe can be easily quantified by per capita income. And just because a dollar there goes further, it doesn't mean they have more dollars or can afford the things Americans can. 2. Estonia and the Ukraine are much more similar to each other than any Eastern bloc country is to the US. And I wouldn't lump Canada and Mexico together for discussion, but I would surely lump Mexico in with Central/Sou…

As to (1): I looked at http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=income+per+capita+in+ea... and noted that the highest income per capita is 12.64 times larger than the lowest. I'm not sure how that "quantifies" anything.

And before you say that the highest number, $21,000 is meaningful in anyway, let me just add that I've paid programmers $65,000 a year (in Poland).

Please, people, stop generalizing. "Eastern Europe" is just as silly as EMEA, "SouthEast Asia" or "North America".

Re: The subtleties in outsourcing using RentACoder

#19

Post by jacquesm »

andrewljohnson wrote: post #13
viraptor wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No - "people in Eastern Europe" aren't wealthy or not in any way that can be approximated to a whole region. "Middle class" is not comparable. It's just a different market. You earn more money and spend more money, but on average it's the same proportion. There are some differences because of country-specific issues - gas prices are completely different for example. Talking about "people in Eastern Europe" is just si…

1. People in Eastern Europe can be easily quantified by per capita income. And just because a dollar there goes further, it doesn't mean they have more dollars or can afford the things Americans can. 2. Estonia and the Ukraine are much more similar to each other than any Eastern bloc country is to the US. And I wouldn't lump Canada and Mexico together for discussion, but I would surely lump Mexico in with Central/Sou…

I don't think I can agree with that.

The difference between Northern Michigan and Southern California or New York is substantially larger than the difference between Poland and Romania or Ukraine.

The biggest difference between those countries and the US can be summed up in one word: market.

They simply have a very limited local market for these skills, but plenty of people there have some skills and are prepared to work very hard to get more. Their cost of living can - at least in the former eastblock - easily approach the cost of living in the US. Plenty of ex eastblock countries are now using the Euro, either for their day-to-day transactions or already for their debt, even though they still have a national currency (because the Euro is more stable, banks like to borrow money in Euros to individuals that get paid in a local currency, very risky but many banks got burned badly during hyperinflation at the end of the 80's).

We agree on the contract bit, I think.

The contract situation is something that is not so important when using systems like rent-a-coder, you're not going to use it to write the gut of an ATM or a mission critical piece of software for a financial institution or a health care provider.

Rent-a-coder is primarily intended for relatively short running simple projects that you want to get done on a minimal budget.

The whole idea of relying on such cheap labour for something that you put a very high value on (high enough to go to court over) is counter to the intended purpose of the service.

Re: The subtleties in outsourcing using RentACoder

#20

Post by viraptor »

andrewljohnson wrote: post #13
viraptor wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No - "people in Eastern Europe" aren't wealthy or not in any way that can be approximated to a whole region. "Middle class" is not comparable. It's just a different market. You earn more money and spend more money, but on average it's the same proportion. There are some differences because of country-specific issues - gas prices are completely different for example. Talking about "people in Eastern Europe" is just si…

1. People in Eastern Europe can be easily quantified by per capita income. And just because a dollar there goes further, it doesn't mean they have more dollars or can afford the things Americans can. 2. Estonia and the Ukraine are much more similar to each other than any Eastern bloc country is to the US. And I wouldn't lump Canada and Mexico together for discussion, but I would surely lump Mexico in with Central/Sou…

Re. 1: it's not something people who never move from the country really experience. If I spend 10% of my salary on food and you do the same, who cares how much we earn? Of course it matters in some global sense and affects the prices of quality goods like electronics which are imported - but in a day-to-day life, I don't think it really matters.

Re. 2: Good luck telling people in Estonia and Ukraine that they're similar in any way ;) "Eastern block" was not a one big lump of states by people's choice and did not break without a reason.

Re. 3: What really bothers me in the previous post is something completely different than you say here. Of course - you can double check to be sure you're right before blaming foreign contractor for the quality of work - because of the lack of legal protection. But if your requirements are not fulfilled - why does it matter if the work was done in US or somewhere else? Your friend wasn't happy with the result. When you say you shouldn't be "pressuring some overseas consultant" in a post about EE countries and income, it seems to me a bit condescending...

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