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PureDarwin – An Informal Successor to OpenDarwin

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Re: PureDarwin – An Informal Successor to OpenDarwin

#11

Post by xvilka »

pjmlp wrote: post #4
orionblastar wrote: post #2

Darwin was cool until Apple quit releasing ISO files and just the source code that needed a lot of work to debug it and put it back together. I'm glad to see someone took it over and has a goal of making Darwin ISO files. I hope it also gets an OSX themed skin for whatever Desktop GUI they decide to use with Cario Dock or something to look like OSX.

Without the whole Objective-C/Swift userspace libraries it will just look like OS X, but it won't be OS X.

I remember there was a crowdfunding campaign or so, about reimplementing this runtime (including graphics libraries) using opensource ObjC implementations.

Re: PureDarwin – An Informal Successor to OpenDarwin

#12

Post by Zardoz84 »

pjmlp wrote: post #9
fithisux wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

KDE is better than Aqua. One needs Darwin for drivers and other subsystems. You can even run cocotron on this.

I cannot seat a Mac OS X user, or developer in front of it, and they will be able to use it just like Mac OS X.

Try to tweak KDE to mimic OSX

Re: PureDarwin – An Informal Successor to OpenDarwin

#13

Post by galad87 »

lloeki wrote: post #10
mrweasel wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you don't mind me asking: Other than intellectual curiosity, why would you want to run Darwin, and not just one of the BSDs? Aren't a large number of the drivers still closed source?

The kext mechanism is pragmatic and interesting: as opposed to Linux kernel modules, binary kexts are compatible across whole kernel versions. Also, having alternatives is always interesting. I was also interested in making the core of OS X† have some form of FOSS liveliness, but I've been quite disheartened about OS X and openness (however limited) since this[0] happened. [0]: https://github.com/lloeki/xbox_one_cont…

Weird, for example this https://github.com/360Controller/360Controller is open source and signed. As usual, Apple's review system is completely arbitrary.

Re: PureDarwin – An Informal Successor to OpenDarwin

#14

Post by pjmlp »

Zardoz84 wrote: post #12
pjmlp wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I cannot seat a Mac OS X user, or developer in front of it, and they will be able to use it just like Mac OS X.

Try to tweak KDE to mimic OSX

Try to run Pages, iTunes, XCode or Apple Script on KDE.

Re: PureDarwin – An Informal Successor to OpenDarwin

#15

Post by mattkevan »

Zardoz84 wrote: post #12
pjmlp wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I cannot seat a Mac OS X user, or developer in front of it, and they will be able to use it just like Mac OS X.

Try to tweak KDE to mimic OSX

And then you'll have a bad copy of a bad copy.

The fit and finish of linux desktops, especially KDE, are nowhere near as good as the Mac, and adding a theme which kind of sort of makes it look like OS X only serves to highlight where it doesn't match up.

As a long time Mac user and now Linux user the only desktop which is vaguely tolerable is Elementary OS as at least someone there with a good eye for detail went through and made sure it all fits together.

Re: PureDarwin – An Informal Successor to OpenDarwin

#16

Post by sspiff »

mattkevan wrote: post #15
Zardoz84 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Try to tweak KDE to mimic OSX

And then you'll have a bad copy of a bad copy. The fit and finish of linux desktops, especially KDE, are nowhere near as good as the Mac, and adding a theme which kind of sort of makes it look like OS X only serves to highlight where it doesn't match up. As a long time Mac user and now Linux user the only desktop which is vaguely tolerable is Elementary OS as at least someone there with a good eye for detail went thr…

> The fit and finish of linux desktops, especially KDE, are nowhere near as good as the Mac

I beg to differ, but only with the "especially KDE" part. KDE is a different beast than most other modern desktop environments, in that it does not try to mimic OS X style in any way.

KDE was started way back when with a goal of replicating a Windows-like UI, with a Start-menu like launcher and a Start-bar like task bar with applets.

It may not be to your tastes, but the fit and finish of KDE3, 4 and now 5 is excellent. Integrated application sets (K[Anything]) with integration into a centralized control/config panel for shortcuts, MIME type handling, ...

The only problem with this is that other popular applications do not bind this tightly to KDE (understandable from application developers - KDE is not the only game in town).

Previously, GTK applications in particular acted and looked like they were from '93 when run outside of GTK-centric desktop environments (XFCE, Gnome). However, Qt has developed a GTK2 and 3 engine that uses Qt and Qt themes under the hood, largely solving that problem when properly configured (try any stable OpenSuse release, for instance).

Re: PureDarwin – An Informal Successor to OpenDarwin

#17

Post by jgranby »

soneil wrote: post #6

Other than moving it to github, is there actually anything new here? They're still talking about the xmas release (2008), and of targeting Darwin9 (2007) and Darwin10(2009).

Exactly -- the latest major release is Darwin 15 (corresponding to OS X El Capitan / 10.11). I'd love to see this (or a similar) project succeed and remain relevant, but it just seems to be falling further and further behind the official releases.

(To be clear, I know there are good reasons for this, and I'm not trying to imply that a lot of work hasn't gone into what has been released ... but I can't help but wonder if there's no longer any hope of it catching up with (semi-closed) Darwin.)

Re: PureDarwin – An Informal Successor to OpenDarwin

#18

Post by derefr »

pjmlp wrote: post #4
orionblastar wrote: post #2

Darwin was cool until Apple quit releasing ISO files and just the source code that needed a lot of work to debug it and put it back together. I'm glad to see someone took it over and has a goal of making Darwin ISO files. I hope it also gets an OSX themed skin for whatever Desktop GUI they decide to use with Cario Dock or something to look like OSX.

Without the whole Objective-C/Swift userspace libraries it will just look like OS X, but it won't be OS X.

Wow, it isn't built on Objective-C? That's completely the reverse of my expectations. I'd picture an "Open Darwin" as a ground-up FOSS rewrite of Mach + XPC, followed by XNU + IOKit, followed by libobjc and CoreFoundation (and libdispatch), followed by most of Cocoa, then all the stuff like LaunchServices to rotate the userland around to an app-bundle-based perspective... and and then maybe getting to the Aqua stuff, sometime around when HURD is usable. You know, basically like the order Mono occurred in.

More to the point, I'd expect the first-milestone goal of an "OpenDarwin" project would be to be able to install and run OSX's Server.app and act as an OpenDirectory master, NetBoot Restore manager, etc. That proves compatibility, and is a useful thing all on its own (because, among other things, it would mean being able to manage OSX from non-Apple hardware†.) Doing a GUI first? Crazy talk!

† ...without spending weeks tearing your hair out trying to conform a Linux LDAP+Kerberos+whatever server to OSX's idea of what an OpenDirectory controller is supposed to look like. I tried, I tried so hard...

Re: PureDarwin – An Informal Successor to OpenDarwin

#19

Post by panglott »

derefr wrote: post #18
pjmlp wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without the whole Objective-C/Swift userspace libraries it will just look like OS X, but it won't be OS X.

Wow, it isn't built on Objective-C? That's completely the reverse of my expectations. I'd picture an "Open Darwin" as a ground-up FOSS rewrite of Mach + XPC, followed by XNU + IOKit, followed by libobjc and CoreFoundation (and libdispatch), followed by most of Cocoa, then all the stuff like LaunchServices to rotate the userland around to an app-bundle-based perspective... and and then maybe getting to the Aqua stuff,…

That sounds like Open OS X more than it sounds like Open Darwin.

Re: PureDarwin – An Informal Successor to OpenDarwin

#20

Post by yardie »

lloeki wrote: post #10
mrweasel wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you don't mind me asking: Other than intellectual curiosity, why would you want to run Darwin, and not just one of the BSDs? Aren't a large number of the drivers still closed source?

The kext mechanism is pragmatic and interesting: as opposed to Linux kernel modules, binary kexts are compatible across whole kernel versions. Also, having alternatives is always interesting. I was also interested in making the core of OS X† have some form of FOSS liveliness, but I've been quite disheartened about OS X and openness (however limited) since this[0] happened. [0]: https://github.com/lloeki/xbox_one_cont…

Strange The OSS kext I use for SMART USB HDDs [0] is also signed, but obviously not the source. You can download the compiled and signed driver here [1].

[0]https://github.com/kasbert/OS-X-SAT-SMART-Driver [1]https://binaryfruit.com/drivedx/usb-drive-support

This sounds like one reviewer has it in their mind that the signing is for licensing (commercialization) and not for security (authentication).

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