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Letters between Backus and Dijkstra (1979)

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Re: Letters between Backus and Dijkstra (1979)

#11

Post by vanderZwan »

justin66 wrote: post #9

"I don't know how many of you have ever met Dijkstra, but you probably know that arrogance in computer science is measured in nano-Dijkstras." - Alan Kay

Funny thing is that Alan Kay himself often comes across just as arrogant these days.

"Comes across", because more often than not I think it's more likely that people who are too pleased with themselves don't like to be told that, really, what they've achieved isn't good enough, or even misguided. Even if, or perhaps especially if, the person who tells them that (Dijkstra when it comes to programming, Kay when it comes to HCI) is right or at least has a very good point.

Re: Letters between Backus and Dijkstra (1979)

#12

Post by Nullabillity »

acidflask wrote: post #3
weinzierl wrote: post #2

This is a series of cell phone shots of an exchange of letters between Backus and Dijkstra. There is no transcript and some of the letters are hard to read, especially the handwritten ones. I only skimmed it but it is definitely an interesting read. I didn't interpret their stance as arrogant though. In my book both are enthusiastic about their subject and think the other party is misguided. Both take some effort not…

The title "This guy’s arrogance takes your breath away" is taken directly from Backus's own description of this collection of letters. I've changed the title to make clearer that it is a direct quotation. Unfortunately, the Library of Congress does not allow scanners without prior approval, so this was the only way I could make my own copies. It did not help that all these letters were written or typed on very thin m…

Why doesn't the LoC scan it themselves? That seems much more useful than just having on display in one location.

Re: Letters between Backus and Dijkstra (1979)

#13

Post by justin66 »

vanderZwan wrote: post #11
justin66 wrote: post #9

"I don't know how many of you have ever met Dijkstra, but you probably know that arrogance in computer science is measured in nano-Dijkstras." - Alan Kay

Funny thing is that Alan Kay himself often comes across just as arrogant these days. "Comes across", because more often than not I think it's more likely that people who are too pleased with themselves don't like to be told that, really, what they've achieved isn't good enough, or even misguided. Even if, or perhaps especially if, the person who tells them that (Dijkstra when it comes to programming, Kay when it come…

What recent talks has Kay given? To be honest, my only criticism of him based on what I've seen the last decade is that he's reusing too much of the same material, even though he certainly has a lot more to say.

Re: Letters between Backus and Dijkstra (1979)

#14

Post by esbranson »

Nullabillity wrote: post #12
acidflask wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The title "This guy’s arrogance takes your breath away" is taken directly from Backus's own description of this collection of letters. I've changed the title to make clearer that it is a direct quotation. Unfortunately, the Library of Congress does not allow scanners without prior approval, so this was the only way I could make my own copies. It did not help that all these letters were written or typed on very thin m…

Why doesn't the LoC scan it themselves? That seems much more useful than just having on display in one location.

The government only recently scanned the US Statutes at Large, so I would say they have more important works to scan.

Re: Letters between Backus and Dijkstra (1979)

#15

Post by vanderZwan »

You know, I'm wondering: could part of Dijkstra's reputed arrogance be due to a cultural difference? I'm Dutch, and bluntly calling out flaws in each other's work is not considered all that rude over here; it's almost the opposite: not calling someone out on their flaws implies we either consider them a lost cause or not worth the hassle of educating.

I almost got fired from a teaching position in Sweden because I told my 3rd year bachelor students that many did not bother to add their names or the assignment number, or using paragraphs and in some cases even basic interpunction on their assignments. And that this was well below the level required to to pass secondary school, and that I expect better from them.

This was apparently too confrontational, and a few upset students later I got chewed out and almost fired. Meanwhile, from my point of view, I was just doing my job and already sugarcoating it by Dutch standards.

Having said that, yes, even by Dutch standards I would say that Dijkstra liked to troll people a bit.

PS: I really like the following insight from Dijkstra's review: But whereas machines must be able to execute programs (without understanding them), people must be able to understand them (without executing them).

Re: Letters between Backus and Dijkstra (1979)

#16

Post by vanderZwan »

justin66 wrote: post #13
vanderZwan wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny thing is that Alan Kay himself often comes across just as arrogant these days. "Comes across", because more often than not I think it's more likely that people who are too pleased with themselves don't like to be told that, really, what they've achieved isn't good enough, or even misguided. Even if, or perhaps especially if, the person who tells them that (Dijkstra when it comes to programming, Kay when it come…

What recent talks has Kay given? To be honest, my only criticism of him based on what I've seen the last decade is that he's reusing too much of the same material, even though he certainly has a lot more to say.

The thing is that I think he is hung up on the masses still not really getting that material, so he keeps repeating himself.

Kinda like how a teacher will repeat the same material because he keeps getting new kids every year.

Also, there's this single question by him on Stack Overflow, where he keeps replying to people with "nope, already had that in the 60s/70s":

http://stackoverflow.com/questions/432922/significant-new-in...

Re: Letters between Backus and Dijkstra (1979)

#17

Post by weinzierl »

Bromskloss wrote: post #10
weinzierl wrote: post #2

This is a series of cell phone shots of an exchange of letters between Backus and Dijkstra. There is no transcript and some of the letters are hard to read, especially the handwritten ones. I only skimmed it but it is definitely an interesting read. I didn't interpret their stance as arrogant though. In my book both are enthusiastic about their subject and think the other party is misguided. Both take some effort not…

What do you say? Shall we divide the task among a few of us and type this up? (Or do people perhaps do this with OCR nowadays?) Would there be enough interest in having these letters in searchable form to motivate the effort?

> Would there be enough interest in having these letters in searchable form to motivate the effort?

Yes, yes, yes.

> Shall we divide the task among a few of us and type this up?

I did the first one, see my other comment. It took me about 20 minutes to type and another 20 minutes to proof read. It is one of the longer ones and handwritten. If a few other join in, absolutely doable.

Re: Letters between Backus and Dijkstra (1979)

#18

Post by Qantourisc »

vanderZwan wrote: post #15

You know, I'm wondering: could part of Dijkstra's reputed arrogance be due to a cultural difference? I'm Dutch, and bluntly calling out flaws in each other's work is not considered all that rude over here; it's almost the opposite: not calling someone out on their flaws implies we either consider them a lost cause or not worth the hassle of educating. I almost got fired from a teaching position in Sweden because I to…

Belgium here: it's a bit the same. However HOW you say it matters to. First times you are expected to say it "without" emotion, like not being angry. Consequential times incrementally go nuts :D

Re: Letters between Backus and Dijkstra (1979)

#19

Post by bmer »

vanderZwan wrote: post #15

You know, I'm wondering: could part of Dijkstra's reputed arrogance be due to a cultural difference? I'm Dutch, and bluntly calling out flaws in each other's work is not considered all that rude over here; it's almost the opposite: not calling someone out on their flaws implies we either consider them a lost cause or not worth the hassle of educating. I almost got fired from a teaching position in Sweden because I to…

Full disclosure:

a) Dijkstra is a bit of a personal "hero" of mine (hero in quotation marks, because I don't like to think of myself as a hero worshipper), because it was due to him I learned of textbooks written by guys like Eric Hehner and Roland Backhouse, which ended up changing my life significantly.

b) I do not really grasp the technical issues being discussed in the correspondences between Dijkstra and Backus

Given this disclosure:

Regardless of the cultural issues (which I suspect you are right about), I found Backus' first response to Dijkstra full of ad hominems, and very light on technical rebuttals. If we subtract out the ad hominems, I suspect the technical rebuttals would take less than a page (which is a significant reduction, considering that the full letter is 4 (typewritten!) pages).

Calling Dijkstra arrogant seems to have been a popular insult (as Backus himself admits), so I wonder if Backus was simply jumping onto the bandwagon as a defensive reaction to the arguments presented in EWD 692.

I think Dijkstra's responses were indeed trollish. I wish he wouldn't have said anything further after he noticed the gratuitous personal attacks against his character in Backus' response, but he couldn't help but say something back. Oh well.

Can you comment on this observation?

Re: Letters between Backus and Dijkstra (1979)

#20

Post by akkartik »

Bromskloss wrote: post #10
weinzierl wrote: post #2

This is a series of cell phone shots of an exchange of letters between Backus and Dijkstra. There is no transcript and some of the letters are hard to read, especially the handwritten ones. I only skimmed it but it is definitely an interesting read. I didn't interpret their stance as arrogant though. In my book both are enthusiastic about their subject and think the other party is misguided. Both take some effort not…

What do you say? Shall we divide the task among a few of us and type this up? (Or do people perhaps do this with OCR nowadays?) Would there be enough interest in having these letters in searchable form to motivate the effort?

Unfortunately they don't seem to be in the EWD archives at http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/indexChron.html. So they indeed don't seem to be OCR'd.
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