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Bootcamps vs. College

blog.triplebyte.com

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Re: Bootcamps vs. College

#11

Post by dtran »

ammon wrote: post #2

I'm happy to answer any questions about this (I expect it to be controversial). When we started Triplebyte one year ago, I was pretty skeptical of bootcamps. Doing credential-blind interviews and seeing what some bootcamp grads can do, however, has won me over. Clearly there are a lot of bad bootcamp grads (and probably a lot of bad bootcamps). But the model is working really well at the top.

Great stuff Ammon and team!

Can you discuss how you might test for bootcamps overfitting their curriculums to interviews? They definitely would seem financially incentivized to do just that. From a personal anecdote, someone I interviewed was able to code a solution for a problem, but then couldn't discuss how or why they did it that way at all, or solve a closely related problem, which made me strongly suspect that they just memorized an answer. How would you test for this?

I would also be curious to see if there was any way to breakdown bootcamp grads with previous programming experience vs. without and by what they studied in undergrad if they went to undergrad.

Re: Bootcamps vs. College

#12

Post by ammon »

pbiggar wrote: post #5

It's not discussed, but I would guess that the best CS grads beat the best BC grads, but average/bad BC grads beat average/bad CS grads.

Pretty close. I don't talk about this in the post, but you are right. The college grads had more variance. You occasionally get a college grad who has been working on open source since they were 15, and actually looks a lot like a, engineer with 3 years experience.

Re: Bootcamps vs. College

#13

Post by data4lyfe »

So triplebyte still can't infer anything about how well a software engineer performs on their job from the metrics that they are gathering though if they're basing performance on how well they do on their coding questions and interviews?

Re: Bootcamps vs. College

#14

Post by pbiggar »

avs733 wrote: post #6
pbiggar wrote: post #5

It's not discussed, but I would guess that the best CS grads beat the best BC grads, but average/bad BC grads beat average/bad CS grads.

at what? assessment here would likely be highly task specific. lines of code? first pass code quality? understanding of architecture? ability to link user's handwaving to functional product? To be clear, I agree with you, I just think there are tasks where the CS grads would generally win and those where the bootcampers would win as well rather than looking at this as an overall population comparison. No one size fit…

I meant for "standard" developer positions: I would say far fewer than 10% of developer positions require skills such as knowing how to code quicksort, or knowing the CAP theorem.

Re: Bootcamps vs. College

#15

Post by pbiggar »

ammon wrote: post #12
pbiggar wrote: post #5

It's not discussed, but I would guess that the best CS grads beat the best BC grads, but average/bad BC grads beat average/bad CS grads.

Pretty close. I don't talk about this in the post, but you are right. The college grads had more variance. You occasionally get a college grad who has been working on open source since they were 15, and actually looks a lot like a, engineer with 3 years experience.

In my experience, bad CS college grads can't code at all, and >50% are terrible programmers (they probably self select out of your interviews though). I would wager a "bad" bootcamp grad could put together a single-page app using some APIs, with relative success.

Re: Bootcamps vs. College

#16

Post by ammon »

pbiggar wrote: post #7

> This does not leave bootcamp grads equivalently skilled to university grads. If you want to do hard algorithmic or low-level programming, you’re still better served by traditional CS eduction. Or, if I may suggest, a low-level/algorithmic bootcamp.

I think it's possible that these things just fundamentally take more time to learn well. I'd be happy to be proven wrong, however.

Re: Bootcamps vs. College

#17

Post by avs733 »

there is a simple confounding variable here that unfortunately triplebyte can't touch with a ten foot pole...age/work experience

College is largely about transitioning children to adults (we can argue that separately) the personal and professional development that students go through over 4 years is vast. They are becoming adults in many frames, including understand the world and technology as systems. They aren't just learning to code, they are learning how to think.

To the extent that I know (warning: anecdata) Bootcamps presume a lot more worldly knowledge, attract and expect more grown up students, get students with direct interest in web/software/apps, and are much more likely to get career transitioning students (from the people I know who have bootcamp'ed). They have a much broader knowledge base to build on which will help them in some areas and hurt them in others. I would be curious if Triplebyte has any data they can touch at all looking at that.

Simply said...a 22 year old college student with a CS degree and a 35 year old BC grad may look similar on metrics but function entirely differently as employees in both the short and the long term...caveat emptor, figure out what you need.

Re: Bootcamps vs. College

#18

Post by redschell »

I think there's a great opportunity for bootcamps to help people like me. I'm currently a pre-sales professional, and have been for a few years now. I'm closing in on 28, and while I've been served very well by developing product expertise, my background isn't in CompSci, and I've never actually formally learned to code. If I want to be a good Solutions Architect down the line, and I certainly do, this could be how I bridge the skill gap.

Sure, I could learn most of what I need to know on my own time, but this might be a great way to get it done quickly in a batch and then move on to applying it in a very practical way with my customers.

Re: Bootcamps vs. College

#19

Post by bunnymancer »

Bootcamper here,

Of course 3 months is going to get you running with a solid basic knowledge of your stuff.

In what world would low-level, algorithms and data structures be doable in 3 months?

Point is, I don't think Bootcamps and Colleges are comparable.

It's like being a woodworker and a forester..

There's a place for each and it's not the same positions...

Now, here's my big question:

If your interview includes Practical programming, Web system Design, Algorithms and Low level system design...

What in the nine hells are you hiring for?

Had it been for a trucker position you'd be asking for "driving license, laws and regulations, engine design and car physics"..

For reference: https://i.imgur.com/sh7LJgj.jpg

Re: Bootcamps vs. College

#20

Post by swalsh »

So basically, the guy who builds a rafter is a woodworker, the guy who nailed the rafter to the structure is a woodworker and the guy who made the dining room table is a woodworker. Each guy is important, but the skill level and education time are different. Not every rough carpenter needs to have an extensive education in fine carpentry to be successful in their area of woodworking.
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