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The German reference letter system

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Re: The German reference letter system

#11

If you're interested in hiring German developers on your team, leading with the fact you're not looking for someone with Doctor Professor in their title, you don't need apostilled copies of every certificate since kindergarten, and you don't need codified reference letters for every job will expand your market considerably. I've placed several Germans in London development positions now, many of whom were surprised w…

It's Professor Doktor, bitte sehr. (scnr)

The sad part is that (except for the Siemens/Telekom/SAP class of companies), companies don't really care that much for all the paperwork - although there's typically some interest in academic credentials.

I often recommend people to fiercely cut down on their application and resume (unless the job ad has specific requirements):

HR doesn't want to read your 5 page treatise on why you're suited to a job they don't know exactly but of which they know that you don't either. They have 500 more cover letters to attend to, no time to read up on your childhood trauma that shaped you into the perfect worker bee.

They also don't care about more than the last 3 years of education (and only if they happened within the last 5 years, otherwise your job history should mostly speak for you).

Sadly, the keyword filter is as strong here as elsewhere (no 5 years of Swift experience? pass), so it's useful to stuff the resume with them (but tabular please, no prose - HR ain't got no time for that). Add academic credentials ("2013: B.A. in Bullshitting at the Agrarian Academy of Bauernhausen, specialization: the qualities of cow manure").

Write a cover letter that shows that you're in reasonable command of friendly, professional German (or English if the position allows for that), and that you read the job ad. Finally add some bait for the hiring manager that indicates why you might be a good fit, should your application get past the HR screen.

HR will be happy to see a no-nonsense candidate that matches the keywords. Everything else is just part of the lottery anyway.

(to add: as soon as you're playing by the HR rules, be it in your reference letter, or in resume design, you're judged by it. Once you obviously deviate from that but without creating extra work for HR, you're likely judged for content only. If they take offense at the deviation, that's probably a pretty huge red flag for the company as a whole simply because it reflects on the type of people they did or did not hire.)

Re: The German reference letter system

#12

If you're interested in hiring German developers on your team, leading with the fact you're not looking for someone with Doctor Professor in their title, you don't need apostilled copies of every certificate since kindergarten, and you don't need codified reference letters for every job will expand your market considerably. I've placed several Germans in London development positions now, many of whom were surprised w…

Would be really interested in your opinion on the German market. Do you see a trend of more and more solid tech people leaving the country? I'm a German working for SV companies remotely for quite some time because of the situation here (very conservative both internally as well as product-wise, low salaries for non-management). I see most good people I worked with in Germany leaving for opportunities in London, Amst…

"References" in the US / UK are proof you worked where you said you did, far beyond qualities references. This guide (see linked PDF) for developers on job titles written by a friend summarises pretty nicely:

https://opensource.careers/developers/how-to-get-paid-more/

Re: The German reference letter system

#13

If you're interested in hiring German developers on your team, leading with the fact you're not looking for someone with Doctor Professor in their title, you don't need apostilled copies of every certificate since kindergarten, and you don't need codified reference letters for every job will expand your market considerably. I've placed several Germans in London development positions now, many of whom were surprised w…

They might also learn that there are different standards between where to put your effort and how much to haggle over some details

Re: The German reference letter system

#14
post #9

This goes a lot deeper than the article seems to suggest. There was an quiz on spiegel a while back that went in depth into the hidden meanings that only HR experts can extract from these letters ( http://www.spiegel.de/unispiegel/jobundberuf/arbeitszeugnis-... ). My wife who works in HR managed to get them all correct, but I would have missed a lot of the explicit meanings inside the numerous formulations. In genera…

This also goes the other way around: my boss mentioned an HR system in our company where he can grade employees and the system automatically generates reference letters using that particular formulated reference letter jargon.

Re: The German reference letter system

#15
The article says that "Germany, alongside with Switzerland, are the only countries in Europe where the employee has the right to a reference letter in which their performance is graded".

In addition at least in Finland, the employee has similar rights to a reference letter with assessment stating duties and performance - and the assessment may not be negative.

In Finland, the law states that "the reference letter must not imply other meanings than what is literally said". That is of course a bit of an impossible requirement. You can always read something implied if there is any assessment, and not having an assessment can also be interpreted as implying something (although it is generally a normal and neutral thing, there is a "long form" of reference with assessment, and "short form" without).

In Sweden, there is also a right to reference letter (arbetsgivarintyg), but it only needs to list duties, not give assessment.

Some years back in Finland, an employer actually went to jail because he refused to sign a reference letter which he considered not true regarding work duties.

Negative assessments are not allowed. The employment had lasted for a few months, but the employee had been on strike for almost all the time, only actually performing work duties for two weeks. The employer, en electrician, agreed to write the reference letter for this two week period but not sign that the employee would have been at work when he was actually on strike. But this was required by law because the employment contract had been valid.

A court case ensued. The employer was sentenced to a couple of months prison and was about to be sentenced again and again for as long as he would not sign the letter; eventually an undisclosed agreement was reached as the identity of the employee also made the news.

This feels rather strange in a country where you otherwise have to do some very graphic violence to go to jail.

Personal references in the US style have become more and more usual here, particularly in white-collar jobs.

Re: The German reference letter system

#16
When I was younger I worked in retail in California, and at two companies was told that it's effectively the same for referrals. If someone calls you for a reference of someone who worked under you, the reference should never be negative, or you're opening yourself up to a lawsuit.

Everybody knew this. "He worked here" as a response to all questions means DO NOT HIRE. People who were caught stealing would be told "quit or we call the police", but you never, ever told anyone calling for a referral about this, even if charges were eventually pressed (which rarely happened). Yes, people who were caught stealing were stupid enough to list their victims as references.

This all made doubly pointless by the fact that somewhere around 99% of people working in retail are stealing things.

Re: The German reference letter system

#17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would be really interested in your opinion on the German market. Do you see a trend of more and more solid tech people leaving the country? I'm a German working for SV companies remotely for quite some time because of the situation here (very conservative both internally as well as product-wise, low salaries for non-management). I see most good people I worked with in Germany leaving for opportunities in London, Amst…

"References" in the US / UK are proof you worked where you said you did, far beyond qualities references. This guide (see linked PDF) for developers on job titles written by a friend summarises pretty nicely: https://opensource.careers/developers/how-to-get-paid-more/

Thank you! That PDF is pretty good and applies to Germany and its reference letter system just the same. The advantage of the letter is that you know (while tuning the resume) what they'll work with.

Re: The German reference letter system

#18
post #9

This goes a lot deeper than the article seems to suggest. There was an quiz on spiegel a while back that went in depth into the hidden meanings that only HR experts can extract from these letters ( http://www.spiegel.de/unispiegel/jobundberuf/arbeitszeugnis-... ). My wife who works in HR managed to get them all correct, but I would have missed a lot of the explicit meanings inside the numerous formulations. In genera…

I sense that the rule of thumb is that if it's mentioned, and not inside a narrow band between sufficiently complimenting and not ironic then it's negative.

But I'm not a native speaker at all, so I really don't know.

Re: The German reference letter system

#19
In the UK I'd always been told you had to give a reference, usually by phone, and couldn't say anything negative but would just say "she worked here" if the employee wasn't very good.

One day at a small company I worked for the phone rang and a fellow developer answered. He said "the CEO's in a meeting right now, can I help?... Oh Andrew? He was terrible, couldn't code his way out of a cardboard box and he was really hard to get on with. I couldn't stand him personally... Ok, you're welcome, bye". My mouth was on the floor, I'm pretty sure Andrew didn't get that job.

Re: The German reference letter system

#20
post #5

I prefer the reference letter system over the personal references system popular in the US because the letter decouples you from former employers. They don't get calls every time you're in talks with a recruiter. The amount of information that's passed along is standardized (even if it's a weird standard, but see below) and better controlled. It's possible to request interim reports, and when doing it semi-regularly…

In France you have a certificate of employment, "that guy was employed from that date to that date, for this job, and he leaves with/without strings attached" (non-competes, etc.)

No judgement of valor, no personal stuff, it confirms the dates, the name of the company and the job title (be careful if you have been promoted internally without your official title adjusted).

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