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Cupertino's mayor: Apple 'abuses us' by not paying taxes

theguardian.com

11–20 of 163 posts

Re: Cupertino's mayor: Apple 'abuses us' by not paying taxes

#11
post #5

> Barry Chang barely made it into the lobby when Apple’s security team surrounded and escorted him off the property. I had to read it again to make sure I'm not making a mistake. Its unimaginable in some geographies. Evokes mixed feelings like : "cool, they can do that?" to "that's quite arrogant" Also reminds me of a video where Steve Jobs met the council. The mayor was delighted like a teenager, showing off his iPa…

I agree. This is... worrisome behavior of a Mayor. > Getting local politicians to battle Apple is hard, Chang said. He recently proposed that Apple – which is building a massive new campus its own employees nicknamed the Death Star, or more favorably, The Spaceship – should give $100m to improve city infrastructure. To move on the proposal, Chang only needed to get a single vote ‘yes’ among the three other eligible c…

>What's his logic for this special Tax on Apple

"You’re helping create the problems, so you have to help solve the problem" - Chang

Re: Cupertino's mayor: Apple 'abuses us' by not paying taxes

#12
post #7
post #5

> Barry Chang barely made it into the lobby when Apple’s security team surrounded and escorted him off the property. I had to read it again to make sure I'm not making a mistake. Its unimaginable in some geographies. Evokes mixed feelings like : "cool, they can do that?" to "that's quite arrogant" Also reminds me of a video where Steve Jobs met the council. The mayor was delighted like a teenager, showing off his iPa…

Why couldn't they? It's private property.

As I said, in some countries, you can't treat an on duty public/government "servant" like that.

Re: Cupertino's mayor: Apple 'abuses us' by not paying taxes

#13
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. This is... worrisome behavior of a Mayor. > Getting local politicians to battle Apple is hard, Chang said. He recently proposed that Apple – which is building a massive new campus its own employees nicknamed the Death Star, or more favorably, The Spaceship – should give $100m to improve city infrastructure. To move on the proposal, Chang only needed to get a single vote ‘yes’ among the three other eligible c…

>What's his logic for this special Tax on Apple "You’re helping create the problems, so you have to help solve the problem" - Chang

Maybe if he described what these problems were, he's get my support.

But considering that he can't even get the support of his own citizens at Town Hall meetings, nor the support of his fellow council members, methinks he's simply incompetent.

And that the problems he describes are made up in his imagination. I can't imagine it to be too difficult to come up with a budget that says "We have to pay for X Million Dollars in the next year to fix the bridges and roads... or to upgrade our water pipes, or to deploy municipal gigabit-fiber. So here's a special +5% tax on all corporations in this Town"

And if the fellow citizens and council members think the plan is worth the tax, then they'll probably agree with him. On the other hand, if citizens are balling up his agendas and throwing them out during meetings... there's clearly a problem here. And it isn't with Apple. Its with the Mayor.

Re: Cupertino's mayor: Apple 'abuses us' by not paying taxes

#14
post #9
post #4

So Apple is already contributing nearly twenty percent of the city's budget? I think the real problem is not enough diversification. Apparently there is also an agreement where the city refunds sales taxes back to Apple? Originally 50% and now down to 35%? Why does this even exist? The way to get Apple to pay for infrastructure improvements is simple, don't do any near their campus and their own employees will be imp…

> The way to get Apple to pay for infrastructure improvements is simple, don't do any near their campus and their own employees will be impacted and that will get Apple to agree to help redevelop the area. And whatever they build they will control. I think you might be slowly giving away the city to a corporation.

That'd only happen if you ceded zoning regulations over to Apple though.

Re: Cupertino's mayor: Apple 'abuses us' by not paying taxes

#15
In the UK we have the concept of "Section 106" payments which allow a development through planning by the developer paying the local government some amount of money to redress the cost of dealing with congestion, public relam, affordable housing, etc. For large skyscraper developments in London, this can be many many millions of pounds.

Does something similar exist in CA?

Re: Cupertino's mayor: Apple 'abuses us' by not paying taxes

#16
post #12
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why couldn't they? It's private property.

As I said, in some countries, you can't treat an on duty public/government "servant" like that.

If he'd been a police officer investigating a crime, or a fire marshall, that wouldn't fly. Doing it to the mayor is just rude.

Re: Cupertino's mayor: Apple 'abuses us' by not paying taxes

#17
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. This is... worrisome behavior of a Mayor. > Getting local politicians to battle Apple is hard, Chang said. He recently proposed that Apple – which is building a massive new campus its own employees nicknamed the Death Star, or more favorably, The Spaceship – should give $100m to improve city infrastructure. To move on the proposal, Chang only needed to get a single vote ‘yes’ among the three other eligible c…

>What's his logic for this special Tax on Apple "You’re helping create the problems, so you have to help solve the problem" - Chang

(From near the end of the article) They (Apple) are already funding 18% of the city. I would argue that's dangerously undiversified already, and they want to increase the percentage?

How much of the city services do they use? How much of the city expenses is their "fair" share?

Re: Cupertino's mayor: Apple 'abuses us' by not paying taxes

#18
Absolutely terrible article.

In an article about property taxes paid or unpaid, it doesn't even mention property taxes. Is Apple's campus under-assessed? A little Googling shows Cupertino's tax rate as $7.96 on a thousand which would value Apple's campus at $1.16B. Is that a lot? Is that a little? What are other companies assessed at in Cupertino and surrounding cities?

The article talks about income taxes which are totally irrelevant to the situation and Woz's assertion that Apple should pay 50% income tax. The article talks about money earned offshore that Apple doesn't pay standard US income tax on, but fails to mention that pretty much every other country in the world doesn't tax foreign earned income as income earned locally (just letting it be taxed in the country it was earned). Plus, it's irrelevant to Cupertino.

This is just "you should hate on Apple. Why? Um, they're not paying taxes. What taxes aren't they paying? Um. . . the taxes."

Really, my simple Googling of Cupertino's tax rate and then trying to come up with an assessment off that isn't good journalism. But I'm just writing a comment on HN at 8am. I'm not a paid journalist - but that paid journalist hasn't researched the simplest questions possible. If Apple were replaced by hundreds of companies that added up to the same number of desks, would Cupertino get more money? If the answer is "no", then there's no story here.

http://venturebeat.com/2013/06/04/apple-campus-2-7k-employee...

The simplest Googling comes up with a much more useful article. Apple paid $25M in property tax in 2012 and that is going to grow by $32M annually with Campus 2 to over $56.5 annually. Apple is funding $66M in local public improvements and $35M on transportation demand programs. Plus, Cupertino is getting $38.1 in one-time construction fees and taxes and Apple is going to pay the Santa Clara Valley Transportation Authority $15.4M annually.

The caption of the image on the guardian article says the mayor wanted $100M from Apple for infrastructure - beyond the more than hundred million the VentureBeat article notes. It kind of sounds like the Mayor is incompetent, hated by voters who are trying to recall him, trying to salvage his career by running for state assembly, and trying to blame his incompetence on Apple. It seems to be more an article about how Cupertino has a terrible mayor.

http://articles.latimes.com/2013/sep/27/business/la-fi-apple...

Here's another, much better article. It notes that Apple's original campus was 856,000 square feet and that Apple has bought (which they would pay tax on) or leased (which their landlord would pay tax on) another 2M square feet. That makes it hard to say exactly what the property should be assessed at given that we don't know what proportion of the 2M they own, but let's say half. At $500/sq ft, 1.856M square feet would come out to $928M in property value. That's pretty close to $1.16B. At the very least, it seems like Apple's taxes are in the ballpark - especially when you consider the amazing deals that companies regularly negotiate to move to locations. Tesla negotated a 100% property tax and sales tax abatement from Nevada for 10 and 20 years respectively, $12,500 for every job, 10 years of 100% business tax abatement, discounted electricity rates for 8 years, plus $120M - totaling $1.2 Billion.

Again, it sounds like an incompetent mayor that voters are trying to recall attempting to save his career.

Re: Cupertino's mayor: Apple 'abuses us' by not paying taxes

#19
post #2

Is the money better in the hands of a super overgrown and overstaffed organisation like the US government when most of it goes to paying interest to the lovely central banks folks and the public has almost 0 transparency over its expenditure? The perfect portrayal of profound inefficiency and over-bloated corporate structure. It's fun and easy to point fingers, and while tax avoidance should by no means by encouraged…

Apple has yet to provide me with food stamps or public housing, both of which saved me when I was a refugee. I can check with my spouse but I'm pretty sure the public hospital she works at was not an apple product.

The rest is just ridiculous. If you want an effective government, you have to take privatization out of it, not rely on it as we have.

Re: Cupertino's mayor: Apple 'abuses us' by not paying taxes

#20
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I said, in some countries, you can't treat an on duty public/government "servant" like that.

If he'd been a police officer investigating a crime, or a fire marshall, that wouldn't fly. Doing it to the mayor is just rude.

I would generally agree that someone like a mayor or governor deserves some default level of respect, but if he just showed up, unannounced, and "hoped to have a meeting" what did he really think would happen?

Most people, even mayors, make appointments when they formally visit another organization in an official capacity. They don't just walk in and expect to be seen.

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