Born for it – How the image of software developers came about • Hacker News Board

Re: Born for it – How the image of software developers came about

#11

Post by douche » Thu, Apr 21, 2016, 4:15 AM UTC

brandmeyer wrote: post #5

x5n1 wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Considering how underrepresented minorities, whether Asian or otherwise, are in management and IT in the Western world, I would not start crying foul over this small irregularity. If anything Google needs more different minorities if anything, for instance Latinos and Blacks.

> If anything Google needs more different minorities if anything, for instance Latinos and Blacks. This is a much bigger problem than just the software industry in the US. I'm a Navy veteran, as a nuclear reactor plant mechanic. I remember being shocked in MEPS (the enlistment and entry processing center for all branches of the armed forces) by the number of black men enlisting in the Army and Marine infantry - it's…

Engineering, from my recollections, had probably the highest wash-out rates of any major when I was in college. It sure looks like a huge part of that is because of the math requirements - a lot of engineering programs throw you in the deep end right at the beginning, with calculus and differential equations, and then you're pretty much hosed in the subsequent coursework if that doesn't click, or you come in woefully unprepared. And overwhelmingly, high schools do a piss-poor job of teaching mathematics to a level that would prepare someone to hit the ground running well enough to survive the initial stages of an engineering major and get through to the interesting stuff. AP Calculus students from top high schools struggle mightily with it, Flying Spaghetti Monster help you if you never mastered, or even were exposed to those concepts at weaker schools.

Computer science isn't much different. All the math coursework hazing is why I have a history degree and a minor in CS - the minor let you take all the interesting stuff, without the 4-5 semesters of poorly taught, mostly useless math department coursework.

Re: Born for it – How the image of software developers came about

#12

Post by Joof » Thu, Apr 21, 2016, 4:20 AM UTC

CardenB wrote: post #8

Joof wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure that there is an undertone that it's their fault. At best, it's because Asians value school and mathematics more and Google prefers high GPA and ability to solve mathematical and algorithmic problems. I suspect there are also a lot of Asians in the world and Google will pull talent from other countries. To continue your analogy: "I'm not Asian, so I'm not good at math, but perhaps if I were Asian I could…

Google doesn't really select for high GPA.

I'm curious as to whether or not this is objectively true when measured. It doesn't have to be intentional, but a reputation for that (which it certainly had at one point) could have the equivalent effect.

Re: Born for it – How the image of software developers came about

#13

Post by Jtsummers » Thu, Apr 21, 2016, 4:29 AM UTC

lstamour wrote: post #9

parennoob wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I understand that people of Asian descent are overrepresented by a factor of 5.3x at Google and that people of European descent are underrepresented by a factor of 0.87x at Google, but I think the author goes too far by attributing this to malice on behalf of the Asians. The linked article [1] literally does not even contain the word "Asian". Am I missing something here? [1] http://martinfowler.com/articles/born-fo…

I read it as race being used as a stand-in or counter-example to that of gender. It's a point you have to think about, it provokes conversation rather than being an argument that stands on its own.

The point could have been delivered more clearly then. Instead it came off as an odd non sequitur that seemed to be about an entirely different article.

Re: Born for it – How the image of software developers came about

#14

Post by DKnoll » Thu, Apr 21, 2016, 4:42 AM UTC

I don't disagree with the thesis of the article, but the creators of the ENIAC were given no mention and they skipped right to the 'computer girls' as if they were fully responsible for it's genesis.

Re: Born for it – How the image of software developers came about

#15

Post by bostik » Thu, Apr 21, 2016, 4:55 AM UTC

mikekchar wrote: post #10

Reading articles like this is so strange for me because I have such a hard time understanding the perspective. To give some background, I started in the late 80's and early 90's in Canada. There were very few womon in my CS program (I recall it was 5 our of 140 in the graduating class), but even still in my early career, I was never on a team without women. I would say that between 10-20% of the programmers I worked…

> At the same time, they see the technical alpha dogs barking up a storm and think, "I don't want to get anywhere near that person".

I was going to write something about self-selection in the field, but I think you have made a more important point there. The technically competent loudmouths attract attention, as well as a disproportionately large audience. For pretty much anyone looking from the outside it appears as a kind of cheerleader-driven mob mentality. And we are surprised that the industry actively repels people who do not fit into this mold?

This also has become a perverse selective trait. The women in the industry are those who entered and remained despite of the atmosphere. Some ignored it, some adapted to it, some even encouraged it. But all of them have had their reasons to continue working in the field. And due to the otherwise repelling selection bias, they are generally way above the mean as far as skills and competence go.[+] As much as dread to quote from Ender's Game, I think Card nailed it: "Your only option is to be so good that nobody can ignore you."

Our engineering is currently 30-odd strong, and we are lucky to have attracted six women so far. We must be doing something (or likely many somethings) right.

+: Of the 5 best systems engineers I have met over the past ~20 years, two have been women. They hold the spots #1 and #3, respectively.

EDIT: turned footnote-asterisk into a plus sign to prevent unintentional italics.

Re: Born for it – How the image of software developers came about

#16

Post by rifung » Thu, Apr 21, 2016, 5:01 AM UTC

CardenB wrote: post #8

Joof wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure that there is an undertone that it's their fault. At best, it's because Asians value school and mathematics more and Google prefers high GPA and ability to solve mathematical and algorithmic problems. I suspect there are also a lot of Asians in the world and Google will pull talent from other countries. To continue your analogy: "I'm not Asian, so I'm not good at math, but perhaps if I were Asian I could…

Google doesn't really select for high GPA.

Maybe they don't select for high GPA but students with high GPAs in high school presumably have a higher chance of getting into a top 10 college and I imagine Google prefers students from top schools

Re: Born for it – How the image of software developers came about

#17

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Apr 21, 2016, 5:01 AM UTC

douche wrote: post #11

brandmeyer wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If anything Google needs more different minorities if anything, for instance Latinos and Blacks. This is a much bigger problem than just the software industry in the US. I'm a Navy veteran, as a nuclear reactor plant mechanic. I remember being shocked in MEPS (the enlistment and entry processing center for all branches of the armed forces) by the number of black men enlisting in the Army and Marine infantry - it's…

Engineering, from my recollections, had probably the highest wash-out rates of any major when I was in college. It sure looks like a huge part of that is because of the math requirements - a lot of engineering programs throw you in the deep end right at the beginning, with calculus and differential equations, and then you're pretty much hosed in the subsequent coursework if that doesn't click, or you come in woefully…

[deleted]

Re: Born for it – How the image of software developers came about

#18

Post by home_boi » Thu, Apr 21, 2016, 5:15 AM UTC

x5n1 wrote: post #3

badapple13 wrote: post #2

I understand that people of Asian descent are overrepresented by a factor of 5.3x at Google and that people of European descent are underrepresented by a factor of 0.87x at Google, but I think the author goes too far by attributing this to malice on behalf of the Asians. Clearly asians could be doing more for the rest of us, but I don't follow the authors subtle undertone that this is their fault. What do you guys th…

Considering how underrepresented minorities, whether Asian or otherwise, are in management and IT in the Western world, I would not start crying foul over this small irregularity. If anything Google needs more different minorities if anything, for instance Latinos and Blacks.

>If anything Google needs more different minorities if anything, for instance Latinos and Blacks.

Why?

I think equal opportunity is a better goal than equal representation. Forced equal representation can quickly deteriorate to racism/sexism.

Inequality in the name of equality.

Re: Born for it – How the image of software developers came about

#19

Post by cb18 » Thu, Apr 21, 2016, 5:15 AM UTC

So many mysteries of the modern world become quite understandable when you allow yourself the luxury of understanding the relevance of intelligence.

It varies among races, knowledge of this is scientifically sound, it is the consensus of everyone who studies it seriously.

The modern tendency is to feverishly avert one's eyes from this fact, but it must be reckoned with eventually.

I believe we'll all be better off when we can stop the hand wringing of why isn't group X doing activity Y.

The sooner we can get on with building a society that is better for everyone while taking everyone's capabilities into account the better.

Not to say there are strict limits on capabilities, but groups with higher average intelligence are obviously going to win more Physics Nobels.

Re: Born for it – How the image of software developers came about

#20

Post by x5n1 » Thu, Apr 21, 2016, 5:21 AM UTC

home_boi wrote: post #18

x5n1 wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Considering how underrepresented minorities, whether Asian or otherwise, are in management and IT in the Western world, I would not start crying foul over this small irregularity. If anything Google needs more different minorities if anything, for instance Latinos and Blacks.

>If anything Google needs more different minorities if anything, for instance Latinos and Blacks. Why? I think equal opportunity is a better goal than equal representation. Forced equal representation can quickly deteriorate to racism/sexism. Inequality in the name of equality.

I seriously don't think there can be anything such as equal opportunity. As there is bias at every part of the hiring process. Equal representation means that more or less wealth is being directed far and wide to people that represent all groups. Having money means having power to affect policies and politics as well as economics.

So for creating any sense of equality in society it's a fact that there needs to be more or less equal representation. Yes there is IQ disparity which probably decreases chances further of finding elite employment. But there are outliers in every population, enough to create equal representation.