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What Dwarf Fortress Taught Me About Startups

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Re: What Dwarf Fortress Taught Me About Startups

#11

Post by _qbjt »

Fun analogy. One of my favorite mechanics in Dwarf Fortress is stress. Dwarves have thoughts which are contingent upon outside influences (fatigue, other dwarves, etc.) [1]. Failure to keep your dwarves happy results in a loss of productivity. Left untreated, your dwarves can eventually go insane and destroy everything you've built [2].

Fortunately, I've never seen this manifest in a startup before my own eyes (at least in an extreme way), but I'm sure someone else has a story to share.

[1] http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Thought

[2] http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/v0.34:Insanity

Re: What Dwarf Fortress Taught Me About Startups

#12

Post by jtolmar »

dunstad wrote: post #10
vinceguidry wrote: post #4

> and the gameplay is brutally difficult. Dwarf Fortress is not particularly difficult once you figure out the obtuse interface. It's only a little bit more difficult than Minecraft without the boss fights. I got bored in a few months. Admittedly, much of this was the tendency of the game to slow my machine to a dead crawl. Once you're proficient at avoiding the pitfalls, the only really interesting thing to do is to…

There is of course a certain extent to which you can adjust how difficult the game will be for you, such as where you embark or just restricting your playstyle, but ultimately coming up with goals is necessary to keep enjoying the game. I never last very long myself...

The problem with embark locations is that they mostly just increase the size of the initial difficulty cliff. The game still settles down to more or less the same amount of challenge once you've dug in. Maybe your migrant waves are smaller after wading through the river full of zombie hippos, but once the survivors get indoors they're as safe as anywhere else.

Re: What Dwarf Fortress Taught Me About Startups

#13

Post by vonkow »

dunstad wrote: post #9
vonkow wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends if they like starting at ASCII. KSP has a much more familiar interface and would probably be the better route to go.

There are actually a surprising number of detailed graphics mods you can get for Dwarf Fortress (although not wanting to fiddle with modding the game is entirely understandable).

Very true, but even with graphics mods the difference in ease of use between DF and KSP's interfaces is vast.

Re: What Dwarf Fortress Taught Me About Startups

#14

Post by tptacek »

rhizome wrote: post #6

OT, but for those of use who know kids into Minecraft, is DF a good thing for them to graduate to? KSP maybe better? Seems like there's a family of games here that have a progression of sophistication.

The problem with DF for young Minecraft players is that Minecraft is intensely social, and DF is for the most part very solitary.

Re: What Dwarf Fortress Taught Me About Startups

#15

Post by rhizome »

vonkow wrote: post #7
rhizome wrote: post #6

OT, but for those of use who know kids into Minecraft, is DF a good thing for them to graduate to? KSP maybe better? Seems like there's a family of games here that have a progression of sophistication.

Depends if they like starting at ASCII. KSP has a much more familiar interface and would probably be the better route to go.

Would you say DF could be a graduation up from KSP, or am I just barking up the wrong tree thinking they're related more than they are (never played MC, DF or KSP)?

Re: What Dwarf Fortress Taught Me About Startups

#16

Post by _qbjt »

rhizome wrote: post #6

OT, but for those of use who know kids into Minecraft, is DF a good thing for them to graduate to? KSP maybe better? Seems like there's a family of games here that have a progression of sophistication.

I would lean toward Kerbal Space Program. It has a lot of depth and a fun style, and apparently some educational value as well [1][2].

You know, the obtuse interface and ASCII graphics of Dwarf Fortress don't bother me but they do hold me back from recommending it. I grew up on the Ultima series, MUDs and old-school roguelikes so my standards here are a bit dated. For a kid growing up in the age of Dark Souls III, a game like Dwarf Fortress might be relentlessly difficult to get into.

[1] http://www.pcgamesn.com/indie/physics-teacher-blasts-his-stu...

[2] http://www.kerbaledu.com/

Re: What Dwarf Fortress Taught Me About Startups

#17

Post by yeukhon »

vonkow wrote: post #5

I'm really surprised that the author didn't get into one of the main ways a fortress fails. It's humming along smoothly and then suddenly the population doubles in size when a group of settlers (VC cash) arrives and the whole place goes to hell from disorganization and growing pains.

Would love to hear honest story telling from really successful startup including FB, Dropbox and even some of the smaller players on this.

Would it make sense to just go full hacker culture like FB from the beginning without any serious management layer and goes small team instead of big team?

Re: What Dwarf Fortress Taught Me About Startups

#18

Post by smaddox »

yeukhon wrote: post #17
vonkow wrote: post #5

I'm really surprised that the author didn't get into one of the main ways a fortress fails. It's humming along smoothly and then suddenly the population doubles in size when a group of settlers (VC cash) arrives and the whole place goes to hell from disorganization and growing pains.

Would love to hear honest story telling from really successful startup including FB, Dropbox and even some of the smaller players on this. Would it make sense to just go full hacker culture like FB from the beginning without any serious management layer and goes small team instead of big team?

A bit of duplicated effort due to inadequate communication is far better than subgroups being forced to use outside systems that they can't modify to automate common tasks.

Re: What Dwarf Fortress Taught Me About Startups

#19

Post by yaur »

rhizome wrote: post #6

OT, but for those of use who know kids into Minecraft, is DF a good thing for them to graduate to? KSP maybe better? Seems like there's a family of games here that have a progression of sophistication.

There is a serious sociopathic bent to both DF and its community. I wouldn't recommend it to your kids unless you had played it enough to know what you are getting them in to. Maybe start by reading http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=91093.0

Its a fun game, but not that kid friendly IMO.

KSP and Factorio are both better options.

Re: What Dwarf Fortress Taught Me About Startups

#20

Post by Retra »

dunstad wrote: post #8
rhizome wrote: post #6

OT, but for those of use who know kids into Minecraft, is DF a good thing for them to graduate to? KSP maybe better? Seems like there's a family of games here that have a progression of sophistication.

Having played both Dwarf Fortress and Minecraft, I think that there are a lot of different people who enjoy many different things about Minecraft. Dwarf Fortress doesn't fulfill all the same roles, so depending on your preferences, you might like it more or less. I don't really see it as progression personally, although they do share a subset of their audiences.

The appeal Dwarf Fortress has over Minecraft is its depth, detail, and propensity for interactive story telling. If you just want to futz around and build things, Minecraft is probably much better.
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