What Software Engineers Earn Compared to the General Population • Hacker News Board

Re: What Software Engineers Earn Compared to the General Population

#11

Post by GFK_of_xmaspast » Mon, Apr 11, 2016, 1:32 PM UTC

glogla wrote: post #4

TrickedOut wrote: post #2

I really detest when software engineer salaries are compared to the salaries of the general population (often to cite how our sector is "overpaid"). Usually lacking from such simple comparisons: 1. Discussion of how software engineers have to go to college for 4 to 6+ years, but the general population is weighted towards those far fewer years of schooling 2. Discussion of downtime -- the amount of time software engne…

Software engineers are like doctors or lawyers - long period of study on difficult (and in places where people pay for colleges expensive) schools, long hours, but good pay. So it makes sense to compare them with doctors and lawyers. Unlike doctors and lawyers, software engineers don't have any respect and are pretty much working class, but that's another story.

> Unlike doctors and lawyers, software engineers don't have any respect and are pretty much working class, but that's another story

I see this kind of Rodney Dangerfield sentiment a lot on HN but it has never made a lick of sense to me (especially the "pretty much working class" variety).

And also if software engineers want to get into the "doctors and lawyers" category we need to start doing doctory and lawyery things like "professional societies with teeth" and "board/bar certifications" and "codes of ethics" (good luck on that last one).

Re: What Software Engineers Earn Compared to the General Population

#12

Post by andreineculau » Mon, Apr 11, 2016, 1:38 PM UTC

paulmd wrote: post #10

It's meaningless to directly compare software engineer salaries with the rest of the general population because our work is a 'force multiplier'. A single software engineer can displace the labor of 10 staff - often permanently. While we're compensated more highly than 1 lower-skilled staff member it's still actually not commensurate with the amount of value we actually deliver. My (unscientific) belief is that we ac…

Value and worthiness are two different things. If a CEO is valued at 12m/y and another one at 6m/y that does not mean one is worth twice as much, nor does he bring in twice more revenue. I hope one day you'll realize that one way or another everyone is worth more or less the same (eg societies need both good software devs, farmers, doctors, teachers, cleaners, carpenters etc) and we are only valued in very extreme ways.

Re: What Software Engineers Earn Compared to the General Population

#13

Post by _yosefk » Mon, Apr 11, 2016, 1:39 PM UTC

paulmd wrote: post #10

It's meaningless to directly compare software engineer salaries with the rest of the general population because our work is a 'force multiplier'. A single software engineer can displace the labor of 10 staff - often permanently. While we're compensated more highly than 1 lower-skilled staff member it's still actually not commensurate with the amount of value we actually deliver. My (unscientific) belief is that we ac…

Erm... How many people are fed by a combine harvester driver? How many babies and mothers are saved by the staff of a modern hospital, who drastically lower child mortality? If 10 future programmers are delivered by a single nurse, should she be paid 10x what a programmer makes?

(Supply and demand I get, "force multiplier" I don't get.)

Re: What Software Engineers Earn Compared to the General Population

#14

Post by dudul » Mon, Apr 11, 2016, 1:40 PM UTC

Am I the only who thinks that the "average income" in a country is a meaningless metric? Depending on the area (e.g. big city, desirable area, etc) average salaries and cost of living may be very different. It is easy to see in the US for example.

Re: What Software Engineers Earn Compared to the General Population

#15

Post by lordCarbonFiber » Mon, Apr 11, 2016, 1:43 PM UTC

TrickedOut wrote: post #2

I really detest when software engineer salaries are compared to the salaries of the general population (often to cite how our sector is "overpaid"). Usually lacking from such simple comparisons: 1. Discussion of how software engineers have to go to college for 4 to 6+ years, but the general population is weighted towards those far fewer years of schooling 2. Discussion of downtime -- the amount of time software engne…

I think the problem is further compounded by the fact that "software engineer" is woefully vague. Are we talking a highly educated Machine Learning specialist working at at top tier institution, or are we talking about the CRUD dev working for the local bank; or perhaps we're comparing generic IT that barely codes at all? The former might be underpaid, the latter maybe over paid, but they're all going to reported as "software engineer" and it really muddies the waters..

Re: What Software Engineers Earn Compared to the General Population

#16

Post by ghaff » Mon, Apr 11, 2016, 1:43 PM UTC

V-2 wrote: post #9

TrickedOut wrote: post #2

I really detest when software engineer salaries are compared to the salaries of the general population (often to cite how our sector is "overpaid"). Usually lacking from such simple comparisons: 1. Discussion of how software engineers have to go to college for 4 to 6+ years, but the general population is weighted towards those far fewer years of schooling 2. Discussion of downtime -- the amount of time software engne…

A lot of software engineers are autodidacts and never graduated in IT. I didn't (I have an MA in politics, obviously irrelevant to my profession). In general unemployment in IT is very low, and there's always a shortage of programmers, so job security is clearly above average. (And government administrations have IT departments, too). It's supply vs. demand, that's all there is to it. I'm not buying any of the above…

>It's supply vs. demand, that's all there is to it.

Yup. There may be good demand because of force multiplier or return to capital or whatever. (Which are just ways of saying that the work translates into something people are willing to pay for.) And there may be (somewhat) limited supply because it's not something everyone wants to or can do, whether through formal education or otherwise.

But, take either supply or demand away and the salaries commanded adjust accordingly.

That I could spend 10 years becoming an expert on medieval German literature doesn't necessarily mean that I could command a high salary however rare that expertise.

Re: What Software Engineers Earn Compared to the General Population

#17

Post by andreineculau » Mon, Apr 11, 2016, 1:43 PM UTC

_yosefk wrote: post #13

paulmd wrote: post #10

It's meaningless to directly compare software engineer salaries with the rest of the general population because our work is a 'force multiplier'. A single software engineer can displace the labor of 10 staff - often permanently. While we're compensated more highly than 1 lower-skilled staff member it's still actually not commensurate with the amount of value we actually deliver. My (unscientific) belief is that we ac…

Erm... How many people are fed by a combine harvester driver? How many babies and mothers are saved by the staff of a modern hospital, who drastically lower child mortality? If 10 future programmers are delivered by a single nurse, should she be paid 10x what a programmer makes? (Supply and demand I get, "force multiplier" I don't get.)

Hilarious but effective argument:) I'll start using it. Thanks!

Re: What Software Engineers Earn Compared to the General Population

#18

Post by frogpelt » Mon, Apr 11, 2016, 1:44 PM UTC

Is it meaningful to compare the median annual income of software engineers to the average annual income of the general population?

I'm legitimately curious, what is the statistical significance of an average versus a median?

Re: What Software Engineers Earn Compared to the General Population

#19

Post by cookiecaper » Mon, Apr 11, 2016, 1:44 PM UTC

GFK_of_xmaspast wrote: post #11

glogla wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Software engineers are like doctors or lawyers - long period of study on difficult (and in places where people pay for colleges expensive) schools, long hours, but good pay. So it makes sense to compare them with doctors and lawyers. Unlike doctors and lawyers, software engineers don't have any respect and are pretty much working class, but that's another story.

> Unlike doctors and lawyers, software engineers don't have any respect and are pretty much working class, but that's another story I see this kind of Rodney Dangerfield sentiment a lot on HN but it has never made a lick of sense to me (especially the "pretty much working class" variety). And also if software engineers want to get into the "doctors and lawyers" category we need to start doing doctory and lawyery thin…

The things you mention -- gatekeepers with teeth -- are a nightmare. They have eviscerated the medical and legal professions to the point of self-parody. They exist to keep otherwise qualified people out explicitly because they want to keep their wages high.

Re: What Software Engineers Earn Compared to the General Population

#20

Post by goldbrick » Mon, Apr 11, 2016, 1:46 PM UTC

frogpelt wrote: post #18

Is it meaningful to compare the median annual income of software engineers to the average annual income of the general population? I'm legitimately curious, what is the statistical significance of an average versus a median?

It's a mistake to compare the two -- statistics 101.