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Why I don't write about programming and why it's not really worthwhile to do so

marco.org

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Re: Why I don't write about programming and why it's not really worthwhile to do so

#11

Post by Scriptor »

mattmanser wrote: post #7
Scriptor wrote: post #3

I'd say it's not worthwhile to write about programming if people already have high expectations for you. Spolsky is definitely well-known and some people probably view him as somewhat full of himself, so they like to pick out anything that might hurt his image. For the average joe schmoe programmer, people don't have such expectations, so there is far less negative reaction. Also, personality does play a huge role. S…

lol, even this is an attack on Joel! "full of himself", "aloof and distant", "For the average joe schmoe programmer (implying only they can appreciate his work)"

I was trying to describe how people who attack him think of him. Also, by "average joe schmoe" I meant someone who, among other things, hasn't published an entire book.

Re: Why I don't write about programming and why it's not really worthwhile to do so

#12

Post by mpk »

As far as I'm concerned this is just another piece of opinion put online by a programmer. That's not a bad thing - putting things out there and talking about them is integral to the programming profession as a whole. Look at the body of writing work out there written by programmers that's considered 'classic' already. Never mind that most of the discussion is usually subjective, highly opinionated, often misinformed and abrasive, insulting or abusive.

Anything that is out there for the public to comment on is subjected to this. Just take that as a given, this is what you get when you make public comments. People not being nice on the internet is just a fact of life. That doesn't immediately devalue what you're saying. There are plenty of people out there who don't read or write commentary and read postings on their merit.

Not writing in public just because people might say nasty things about you or your writings seems wrong to me.

Also, VI rocks! Down with Emacs! Yeah! Screw your non-modal editors!

Re: Why I don't write about programming and why it's not really worthwhile to do so

#13

Post by amackera »

petercooper wrote: post #9
Scriptor wrote: post #3

I'd say it's not worthwhile to write about programming if people already have high expectations for you. Spolsky is definitely well-known and some people probably view him as somewhat full of himself, so they like to pick out anything that might hurt his image. For the average joe schmoe programmer, people don't have such expectations, so there is far less negative reaction. Also, personality does play a huge role. S…

Someone who doesn't seem to aloof and distant from other people will be better off (take _why for example). _why isn't the best example - he was awesome, but part of his appeal was that he was distant and not on the same plane as the rest of us.. just not in a negative way. Nonetheless, before he disappeared he tweeted: programming is rather thankless. u see your works become replaced by superior ones in a year. unab…

This is something that has bothered me a lot in the past. Other engineers build bridges and towers and monuments that stand for years and years. The beautiful code written by a good programmer might be replaced 8 months later by a junior who doesn't understand it.

I suppose in our profession we are able to perpetuate ourselves by communicating our ideas into the world. Our influence is felt in posterity through the inspiration of thought in our successors. The kernel may evolve over time, but its evolution may be guided by the initial conditions of its initial code base (and subsequent changes).

A civil engineer may be directly remembered by the the bridge that bears his or her name; a software engineer may be indirectly remembered by the smart code he or she has written.

Re: Why I don't write about programming and why it's not really worthwhile to do so

#15

Post by theBobMcCormick »

neilc wrote: post #8
jackfoxy wrote: post #4

Although my evidence is only anecdotal, it seems like a lot of the programmers who are constantly argumentative and the biggest flamers are loners who in some cases have never even worked in a team environment.

I think another reason for this behavior is that programmers often define their identity in terms of their preferred tools (you're a " Perl programmer", not merely a "programmer"). That means that any perceived slight against a programmer's preferred tool must be aggressively defended -- hence the abundance of religious arguments about "$X is better than your favorite language."

I think there's a very similar dynamic at work in politics, where people self-identify as a particular party or supporter of a particular ideology, an then take any criticism, however mild" of that party or ideology as a personal attack upon their very identity.

Re: Why I don't write about programming and why it's not really worthwhile to do so

#16

Post by mpk »

neilc wrote: post #8
jackfoxy wrote: post #4

Although my evidence is only anecdotal, it seems like a lot of the programmers who are constantly argumentative and the biggest flamers are loners who in some cases have never even worked in a team environment.

I think another reason for this behavior is that programmers often define their identity in terms of their preferred tools (you're a " Perl programmer", not merely a "programmer"). That means that any perceived slight against a programmer's preferred tool must be aggressively defended -- hence the abundance of religious arguments about "$X is better than your favorite language."

Some programmers are like that and they are horribly annoying to work with. Zealots always are, regardless of the environment you're working in. You can't have a civilized discussion with them so don't even try.

Re: Why I don't write about programming and why it's not really worthwhile to do so

#17

Post by jrockway »

I disagree. Although my blog is currently down (software issues that I have put off fixing for wayyy too long), I am going to continue to write about programming. Something that really annoys me is how many programmers don't know how to program. Sitting around on social news sites telling everyone how dumb they are doesn't fix the problem, but teaching people how to program does.

I try to do that through writing, and I'd like to think that I've been moderately successful. I sold a few copies of my programming-related book, and many people have met me at conferences and have told me how my blog helped them in some way. It's helped people get over the fears of learning Emacs Lisp, it's helped people start using object databases, it's helped people realize that library code is just like the code they write, and that they can just start contributing! These are all things that make me happy, and knowing that I am helping push other people in this direction makes me even happier. All this by just being instructional and mostly "unbiased"; not every piece of writing that influences someone has to be filled with argumentative rhetoric. (I found out early on that "my $foo is better because $bar" just makes people mad. So I try to write "here's how $foo works" and let people make their own decision. This results in a lot less hate, although I admit that I can't resist writing a good piece of flamebait now and again. It makes me feel good if only one person agrees, and it makes me feel good when someone who I've never met thinks its worth his time to tell me to "die in a fire". Who says I'm not mentally ill?)

Anyway, I think writing about programming is highly worthwhile -- both for the author, and the wider "programming community". I'm not going to stop, and I'm not going to miss Joel.

Re: Why I don't write about programming and why it's not really worthwhile to do so

#18

Post by jrockway »

Scriptor wrote: post #3

I'd say it's not worthwhile to write about programming if people already have high expectations for you. Spolsky is definitely well-known and some people probably view him as somewhat full of himself, so they like to pick out anything that might hurt his image. For the average joe schmoe programmer, people don't have such expectations, so there is far less negative reaction. Also, personality does play a huge role. S…

It's worth noting that Spolsky writes about programmers, not programming. Everything he says is opinion, and as a result, it tends to spawn a lot of critical comments. ("Your employer hates you if you don't have an Aeron chair." Maybe, maybe not.)

Writing about programming -- techniques, thought processes, libraries, and code -- is highly valuable, at least in my opinion.

Re: Why I don't write about programming and why it's not really worthwhile to do so

#19

Post by madair »

He didn't say it's not worthwhile, on the contrary, Marco laments the loss to programmers and tech writing. What he said is that for him it's not worth the risk of putting himself out there:

Some people claim that they don’t care and that they can ignore it. I don’t know if Joel can. I can’t, which is one of the reasons why I rarely write about programming: it’s just not worth the risk of putting myself out there on that subject because the risk of strongly negative feedback is higher than with most other content that I can produce. It’s much easier to share my breakfast than my easily argued, easily disproven, intellectually vulnerable thoughts on programming.

Re: Why I don't write about programming and why it's not really worthwhile to do so

#20

Post by kalid »

theBobMcCormick wrote: post #15
neilc wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think another reason for this behavior is that programmers often define their identity in terms of their preferred tools (you're a " Perl programmer", not merely a "programmer"). That means that any perceived slight against a programmer's preferred tool must be aggressively defended -- hence the abundance of religious arguments about "$X is better than your favorite language."

I think there's a very similar dynamic at work in politics, where people self-identify as a particular party or supporter of a particular ideology, an then take any criticism, however mild" of that party or ideology as a personal attack upon their very identity.

Yes, I think this unfortunate tribal protection trait is built into human nature. In the past it may have helped, but we end up forming (and violently 'defending') tribes around random things. It seems religion, sports, politics, etc. play on this instinct.
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