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Benin City, the mighty medieval capital now lost without trace

theguardian.com

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Re: Benin City, the mighty medieval capital now lost without trace

#11

Post by parennoob »

anonymous325 wrote: post #9

Notice all the hand-waving in the article about mathematics. Mathematics proper, as in the derivation of theorems from axioms by means of proof, was discovered by the Greeks, and unless the residents of Benin City, or the Maya, or any other non-Western society that biased academics seek to rehabilitate were similarly deriving theorems from axioms by means of proof as did Euclid, speaking of their supposed mathematica…

> Mathematics proper, as in the derivation of theorems from axioms by means of proof

That is an extremely narrow definition [1]. It is acceptable to me as someone who works in the intersection of technology and mathematics -- but for the general public the word implies a wide field of study, exploration and usage.

For example, on Wikipedia "Mathematics (from Greek μάθημα máthēma, “knowledge, study, learning”) is the study of topics such as quantity (numbers), structure, space, and change."

So all the author is saying that the residents of Benin City seem to have studied fractal patterns in some form and used them in art.

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[1] Although, reading your comment more carefully, you did qualify it with "mathematics proper". I guess my comment's whole point is that it's often "mathematics improper" when used by a popular columnist.

Re: Benin City, the mighty medieval capital now lost without trace

#12

Post by JoeAltmaier »

Google satellite view of modern-day Benin City shows clear evidence of past earthworks in the countryside surrounding. In particular traces of an earthen structure runs northeast out of the city starting at about St. Savior Rd, through Urhokuosa, Erua and Ethor to Irrua. A distance of 50 miles, and perhaps further.

https://www.google.com/maps/@6.3474921,5.747339,27322m/data=...

Re: Benin City, the mighty medieval capital now lost without trace

#13

Post by yongjik »

anonymous325 wrote: post #9

Notice all the hand-waving in the article about mathematics. Mathematics proper, as in the derivation of theorems from axioms by means of proof, was discovered by the Greeks, and unless the residents of Benin City, or the Maya, or any other non-Western society that biased academics seek to rehabilitate were similarly deriving theorems from axioms by means of proof as did Euclid, speaking of their supposed mathematica…

Echoing other comments, the importance of "proof" in math has not been universal even in West. For example, the rigorous definition of derivatives[1] was not given until 1817, 130 years after Newton's Principia was published.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/(%CE%B5,_%CE%B4)-definition_of...

Re: Benin City, the mighty medieval capital now lost without trace

#14

Post by anonymous325 »

apalmer wrote: post #10
anonymous325 wrote: post #9

Notice all the hand-waving in the article about mathematics. Mathematics proper, as in the derivation of theorems from axioms by means of proof, was discovered by the Greeks, and unless the residents of Benin City, or the Maya, or any other non-Western society that biased academics seek to rehabilitate were similarly deriving theorems from axioms by means of proof as did Euclid, speaking of their supposed mathematica…

Mathematics as far as it being a branch of logic was pretty much invented by the greeks as you say. And the mathematics mentioned in this article are definitely 'tenuous' at best. I clicked on the 'African Fractals' and didn't really see anything that I would consider mathematics, although I did see some organizing principals I guess. However the claim that mathematics is either 'theorems' or bust is not really valid…

> However the claim that mathematics is either 'theorems' or bust

The theorems of mathematics are what distinguishes it from other enterprises and provides us with a degree of certainty of the correctness of our conclusions that would otherwise be unavailable. No number of (Euclidean) triangles measured, however great, would convince us equally well that their interior angles always sum to 180 degrees, nor would any exhaustive search of pairs of integers convince us equally well that the square root of two really is irrational.

By exaggerating the accomplishments of Africans to a lay audience, the article is minimizing the accomplishments of Europeans.

Re: Benin City, the mighty medieval capital now lost without trace

#16

Post by RangerScience »

anonymous325 wrote: post #9

Notice all the hand-waving in the article about mathematics. Mathematics proper, as in the derivation of theorems from axioms by means of proof, was discovered by the Greeks, and unless the residents of Benin City, or the Maya, or any other non-Western society that biased academics seek to rehabilitate were similarly deriving theorems from axioms by means of proof as did Euclid, speaking of their supposed mathematica…

What? No. There's way more examples, but the ones that most come to mind are the calendars of the Mayan and Incan civilizations. If that's not mathematics, what is it?

Re: Benin City, the mighty medieval capital now lost without trace

#18

Post by thechao »

adwf wrote: post #8
shaftoe wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Read other sources on the history of the sack of Benin. This article romanticizes a city with human sacrifices and slave trade. From Wikipedia's article on the Benin Massacre: But the way Benin treated its slaves and the public display of large quantities of human remains hardened British attitudes towards Benin's rulers. The trader James Pinnock wrote that he saw 'a large number of men all handcuffed and chained' th…

Oh I know. There's always many sides to these stories. I don't feel bad about it other than in an abstract modern moral way, it's history. But the number of times something from the 18th-20th centuries like this comes up and you find out it was our ancestors... I sometimes wonder whether this'll be the same reaction Americans will have in 200 years time. Things always look better when justified in the moral context o…

No, no, don't worry; there's been more than one occasion when I silently repeated to myself: "please not Texas, please not Texas..."

Re: Benin City, the mighty medieval capital now lost without trace

#19

Post by eggman »

mozumder wrote: post #17
afarrell wrote: post #6

When I was a kid, I was frustrated by the absence of an RTS or city-building game set in sub-Saharan Africa. I continue to be annoyed by this.

Heart of Africa on Commodore 64?

I got caught up in that C64 madness. I walked away from that game thinking that the quickest way to victory includes robbing the natives. Never again.

Re: Benin City, the mighty medieval capital now lost without trace

#20

Post by bsder »

shaftoe wrote: post #5
adwf wrote: post #4

I wonder whether there should be a word for the feeling you get when reading something like this and thinking "Please don't be the British again..." Dammit :(

Read other sources on the history of the sack of Benin. This article romanticizes a city with human sacrifices and slave trade. From Wikipedia's article on the Benin Massacre: But the way Benin treated its slaves and the public display of large quantities of human remains hardened British attitudes towards Benin's rulers. The trader James Pinnock wrote that he saw 'a large number of men all handcuffed and chained' th…

History is written by the victors justifying themselves.

Remember, this occurred in an era of "Social Darwinism" and "noble savages", etc.

That's not to say that these accounts aren't correct, but you can't just accept them at face value without some archaeological evidence to back them up.

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