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On asking job candidates to code

philcalcado.com

11–20 of 524 posts

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#11
post #4

I really hate having to solve these kind of programming challenges. I've already sent you my CV, with references from former/current employers and co-workers. Call them up if you are worried that I'm lying on my résumé, don't waste my time by making me work for the chance of maybe getting a job as only payment. Doing multiple interviews already takes up enough of my time, seeing as I'm the one who has to commute to y…

The problem is: Writing good resumes and having a lot of experience with programming is a good heuristic for "experience" and "knows how to play the game" but not meaningfully useful for "excellent at programming".

Work-sample tests measure the latter.

A worker's experience is a heuristic for programming skill, but a heuristic of a heuristic is like an average of a set of averages: Useless.

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#12
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because at the end of the day coming up with work sample problems & then applying rigorous metric analysis is much harder than "grab engineer & throw him in a room with the candidate".

It's such a false economy. It's harder the first time. By the third or fourth time, it's free. And that's before you count the expense of making super dumb hiring decisions, which is what happens when you use virtually any other process.

How long did it take you to get scripted interviews implemented at Monsanto? How long to actually figure out what the scripts should say? Did your data indicate that the interviews were valuable & if not, how long did it take you to get interviews removed from the hiring process? How much of your time did you devote to building work sample tests or work sample sales funnel devices (microcorruption)? This is at an organization where you had a fair bit of influence.

Now take a more normal organization where the hiring pipeline is guided by people who treat it either as a sales process or a regulatory one. Those people are given their marching orders by executives that either believe or want it to be true that employees are fungible and readily available. The actual resources are allocated by middle management that are already resource constrained (thus the need to hire) and the people doing the interviews have never thought about it being something they can apply engineering skills against. Its a hard problem...

Also, I suspect your marketing department might prefer if you never downplay how hard it is ;)

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#13
post #2

Like the author, having run a hiring program for several years based on coding challenges designed to mimic the work the team does (ie, work sample tests), I do not understand why any tech company does developer hiring in any other way. I particularly like how this team iterated on their uploader problem, abstracting it out to a socket server and providing a test suite for it. Reacting to ambiguity by abstracting the…

> (ie, work sample tests), I do not understand why any tech company does developer hiring in any other way.

Because every method of hiring has its own biases and tradeoffs. Requiring work samples biases against programmers who aren't interested in doing a "homework assignment". For example, I don't enjoy whiteboard interviews but I'd rather write some fragments in front of the interviewer and "think out loud" instead of working on a multi-hour (or multi-day) coding project. Writing on a whiteboard is just not that big of a pressure cooker to me.

One could argue that the majority would prefer self-paced work samples instead of whiteboard interviews and you're optimizing for a wider candidate pool. That's fine but it's still a tradeoff. I think you're running a smaller scale boutique firm so work samples makes sense for you.

For a company like Google Inc who is more selective[1] than Harvard University, I don't see a compelling need for them to rely on work samples. That company is so desirable for programmers that any "work samples" Google tries to standardize on would get leaked and endlessly discussed on stackoverflow (see FizzBuzz for precedence.) If Google has to keep changing out the work samples to stay ahead of the street knowledge, you've lost the ability to compare work samples over the years which was one of the motivations to use that method in the first place.

At their scale and selectivity, the "study your algorithms book and prepare to be grilled on the whiteboard" seems to work best for them. Yes, they reject a lot of false-negatives but it's offset by ... their scale and selectivity. They can afford to reject false-negatives. If their screening methods were truly terrible, I don't see how the label "ex-Googler" would have the currency it does in the marketplace.

[1]http://thenextweb.com/google/2010/09/14/one-half-of-one-perc...

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#14
Not writing code for a potential employer or being asked to in an interview is a warning flag to me personally. I feel better if they do, as they've seen the goods to influence their decision on the hire. It's more about "How does this person think, how do they approach the problem". How can you measure that unless you're there? I see a lot of "I shouldn't have to do that". Well yeah, ok. But if you're any good, you shouldn't have a problem with that either.

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#15

> As brain-dead as I was after eight hours at my project, [..] Is giving out an 8+ hour programming project as part of the application process really considered good hiring practice? If you apply to five jobs, you're expected to spend an entire unpaid work week writing code that doesn't benefit anyone? If a company receives 20 applicants, their ideal candidate selection wastes a collective work month? I don't really…

> Is giving out an 8+ hour programming project as part of the application process really considered good hiring practice?

I'd say 8 hours is too long. I always strive for a 4 hours, but I've seen that 4 hours chop 16 hours off of the candidates time and more than 32 off of the companies.

> What's the point of maintaining an online portfolio and a github profile full of code

The vast, vast, vast majority of candidates do not have an online profile full of code. Either because their code is IP restricted or they do not have time outside of work to maintain that. I view using online profiles as a decided anti-pattern in hiring on the company side as it restricts your candidate pool to a tiny subset of the community that I've seen no evidence provides any more value in outcome and its much more prejudicial to the candidate population than any coding assignment can ever be.

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#17

> As brain-dead as I was after eight hours at my project, [..] Is giving out an 8+ hour programming project as part of the application process really considered good hiring practice? If you apply to five jobs, you're expected to spend an entire unpaid work week writing code that doesn't benefit anyone? If a company receives 20 applicants, their ideal candidate selection wastes a collective work month? I don't really…

Would you feel better about providing work samples if you got paid fairly for each one?

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#19
post #13
post #2

Like the author, having run a hiring program for several years based on coding challenges designed to mimic the work the team does (ie, work sample tests), I do not understand why any tech company does developer hiring in any other way. I particularly like how this team iterated on their uploader problem, abstracting it out to a socket server and providing a test suite for it. Reacting to ambiguity by abstracting the…

> (ie, work sample tests), I do not understand why any tech company does developer hiring in any other way. Because every method of hiring has its own biases and tradeoffs. Requiring work samples biases against programmers who aren't interested in doing a "homework assignment". For example, I don't enjoy whiteboard interviews but I'd rather write some fragments in front of the interviewer and "think out loud" instead…

> For a company like Google Inc who is more selecitve than Harvard University

Nitpick, but I'd love to see a citation on that. Google, like every technology company on the planet (modulo a small error value) goes to great lengths to recruit and hires lots and lots of people.

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#20
post #14

Not writing code for a potential employer or being asked to in an interview is a warning flag to me personally. I feel better if they do, as they've seen the goods to influence their decision on the hire. It's more about "How does this person think, how do they approach the problem". How can you measure that unless you're there? I see a lot of "I shouldn't have to do that". Well yeah, ok. But if you're any good, you…

>as they've seen the goods to influence their decision on the hire

Or, they haven't. Which is why articles debating interview coding policies show up on HN almost every day. There is no "one" way.

>But if you're any good

And yet it's also well known that companies just can't get the engineering talent they require. Where is the discrepancy occurring?

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