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The Oxford maths interview, shaking up admissions

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Re: The Oxford maths interview, shaking up admissions

#11

Post by sushisource »

Smaug123 wrote: post #4

I wonder to what extent there is anyone who could cope with the Oxford course but who could not breeze through A-level Further Maths. I entirely understand that the converse is false: there are people who are extremely good at exams but who simply couldn't cope with the Oxford course. Almost all of those on the Cambridge maths course (which I'm taking to be similar) found A-level maths/further maths very easy. Of cou…

Totally a possibility. I know lots of people who are skilled problem solvers, but sometimes do poorly on exams because they simply aren't motivated enough. That was definitely the case for me entering college. I had work experience that proved I could do complicated computer science work, but I didn't have great exam grades, so I had a hard time getting into the department.

That's not to say I couldn't have done well on the tests, I just didn't care enough to study hard for them because I had more interesting things taking up my time.

Now, that's not to say there aren't problems with that philosophy too - but it's certainly one reason.

Re: The Oxford maths interview, shaking up admissions

#12

Post by hellisonwright »

Smaug123 wrote: post #4

I wonder to what extent there is anyone who could cope with the Oxford course but who could not breeze through A-level Further Maths. I entirely understand that the converse is false: there are people who are extremely good at exams but who simply couldn't cope with the Oxford course. Almost all of those on the Cambridge maths course (which I'm taking to be similar) found A-level maths/further maths very easy. Of cou…

As someone going through this process at the moment, I find it unlikely that a candidate who could naturally cope with the Oxbridge courses would struggle with the further maths content in isolation. For all its flaws, the course is largely a disjointed collection of fundamental problem solving methods and concepts which are reintroduced at University level anyway.

The exams themselves however are an entirely different matter, and I know of several capable students who have had their university prospects diminished by poor performance in the exam room - whether due to anxiety, poor 'exam technique' (less relevant for maths of course), or other factors.

Notably, Cambridge interviews a high proportion of candidates who apply for maths, which presumably enables them to take some of the emphasis away from the exam results on paper, and give much more consideration towards the logical thinking and problem solving skills useful for the Tripos.

Re: The Oxford maths interview, shaking up admissions

#13

Post by mathetic »

agripa2 wrote: post #6
murkle wrote: post #5

If he thinks exams are a bad indicator... why does Oxford assess its students with... exams?

One on on interviews don't scale. I feel like it's the biggest problem in any admissions process; the best metrics are one's that don't scale, so you're forced to rely on less optimal ones.

It's not a problem of scale, it is a problem of fairness. I went to one of the two and I can tell you people lose their minds over everything being anonymous and fair even when it is as anonymous as it gets.

When human assessors are involved, it becomes more subjective. Imagine having your assessment with the instructor of your strongest subject vs your weakest subject.

Re: The Oxford maths interview, shaking up admissions

#14

Post by fjmubeen »

murkle wrote: post #5

If he thinks exams are a bad indicator... why does Oxford assess its students with... exams?

Very fair question - alas, I did not have the authority to change the system (and, for selfish reasons, would not want to as my exam scores flattered my actual ability).

Worth noting that written exams do not feature at all in research. There's a recognition at this level that mathematical understanding can not be captured through blunt testing instruments.

Re: The Oxford maths interview, shaking up admissions

#15

Post by fjmubeen »

Smaug123 wrote: post #4

I wonder to what extent there is anyone who could cope with the Oxford course but who could not breeze through A-level Further Maths. I entirely understand that the converse is false: there are people who are extremely good at exams but who simply couldn't cope with the Oxford course. Almost all of those on the Cambridge maths course (which I'm taking to be similar) found A-level maths/further maths very easy. Of cou…

It's important to note the distinction between breezing through course material and breezing through an exam.

I have taught plenty of students who possessed a deep understanding of mathematics but could not perform within the confines of a structured exam. They may be berated for performance or even lack of preparation, but given that problem-solving is the main criteria for admissions this surely reflects the limitation of the measuring tool.

Similarly, many students who breeze through A Level exams may have thought they'd mastered topics like calculus, but it turns out the exams only called on their computational fluency. The moment they are pushed conceptually and asked to formulate their thinking with the rigour that undergraduate mathematics, they come unstuck.

Re: The Oxford maths interview, shaking up admissions

#16

Post by dbcurtis »

This article speaks directly to the problem that Art of Problem Solving is trying to address. https://www.artofproblemsolving.com/ Richard Ruszcyk wants to teach kids to think, how to solve novel problems, and hates the normal approach of teaching rote formulas. No student steeped in the AoPS way would crash during the Oxford interviews. An Oxford interview is their "middle school normal".

The AoPS text books are the best math textbooks I've seen anywhere. The online classes are great, but the pace is blistering. But most kids should use the AoPS books, just at a more suitable pace. (And by blistering, I mean my daughter was very seriously challenged to keep up with her peers all the way through single variable calculus, where AoPS tops out. She then enrolled in multi-variable calculus at a local engineering university at age 13 and blew away the curve.)

AoPS is an example of where learning can go. AoPS teaches how to think, not how to takes tests.

Re: The Oxford maths interview, shaking up admissions

#17

Post by cgio »

technotony wrote: post #9
Smaug123 wrote: post #4

I wonder to what extent there is anyone who could cope with the Oxford course but who could not breeze through A-level Further Maths. I entirely understand that the converse is false: there are people who are extremely good at exams but who simply couldn't cope with the Oxford course. Almost all of those on the Cambridge maths course (which I'm taking to be similar) found A-level maths/further maths very easy. Of cou…

My Cambridge interview tested for this explicitly. They gave you 45 minutes to prepare answers to 8 'further maths' type questions, then you had to solve some creative problems at the end. These creative problems required knowledge of further maths concepts but were unusual so you needed time to think about them and develop a mathematical framework for the solution, this therefore tested that you could do the further…

Am I wrong to think that the stretching of the band does not have anything to do with "how far along the band" the mouse will travel? Maybe it's my English as a second language, but my intuition is that the mouse still travels along the band as it expands, and you would probably need a point of reference, e.g. How far along the gap that the elastic band bridges to make the question more challenging.

Re: The Oxford maths interview, shaking up admissions

#18

Post by reillyse »

I didn't do the A-levels but from my understanding of them I have always thought that they don't seem to discriminate between candidates well enough. That is to say that there just are not enough grades. I think the passing grades you can get are A,B,C or D. Most people who get in to the top universities get straight A's. I think if each of these grades was split in 3 it would make the result a lot more meaningful and would go a long way towards ensuring that the best candidates got invited to study at the university (I think the entire interview process is fraught with huge bias problems).

Re: The Oxford maths interview, shaking up admissions

#19

Post by tfgg »

reillyse wrote: post #18

I didn't do the A-levels but from my understanding of them I have always thought that they don't seem to discriminate between candidates well enough. That is to say that there just are not enough grades. I think the passing grades you can get are A,B,C or D. Most people who get in to the top universities get straight A's. I think if each of these grades was split in 3 it would make the result a lot more meaningful an…

They recently (a few years ago) introduced A* grades for 90+/100 scores, where A was 80/100 before and so, as you note, not very discriminating. I'm not totally sure, but I think a standard offer for one of the elite universities is A*AA these days.

I'm not sure I like the idea. Only having to hit 80 reduces stress quite a bit, and it gave me time to do extracurricular things like programming, and way more maths modules than anyone should :) If I had to hit 90+ in everything, I would have probably been risk adverse and cut down. It also feels like it selects a bit too much for people who over perform in exams. That said, I did have to send in my raw module marks anyway when I applied ~10 years ago, and did hit 90+ anyway.

Re: The Oxford maths interview, shaking up admissions

#20

Post by tfgg »

cgio wrote: post #17
technotony wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My Cambridge interview tested for this explicitly. They gave you 45 minutes to prepare answers to 8 'further maths' type questions, then you had to solve some creative problems at the end. These creative problems required knowledge of further maths concepts but were unusual so you needed time to think about them and develop a mathematical framework for the solution, this therefore tested that you could do the further…

Am I wrong to think that the stretching of the band does not have anything to do with "how far along the band" the mouse will travel? Maybe it's my English as a second language, but my intuition is that the mouse still travels along the band as it expands, and you would probably need a point of reference, e.g. How far along the gap that the elastic band bridges to make the question more challenging.

The mouse is walking along the band, while the end of the band moves away, however the mouse is also being carried along by the expansion of the band. I think the best approach is to think in terms of the fractional coordinate of the mouse along the band, and work out its effective velocity in this coordinate.
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