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Open Letter from a Eurocitizen Living in London: Brits, Vote for Brexit

opendemocracy.net

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Re: Open Letter from a Eurocitizen Living in London: Brits, Vote for Brexit

#11

Post by mercurial »

Is the European voice fading? When was "political Europe" ever a thing? Each crisis sees individual European governments (or at best, regional blocks) go in their own direction. You can even watch the farce unfold right now, with the attitude towards Greece, where the neighbouring countries are basically saying "that's not our problem". And let's not even talk about the "European voice" on the topic of EU foreign policy, because there is no such thing.

And I don't see that changing. Due to a combination between structural issues, different interests between North, West, East and South and the crisis-related rise of right-wing populism across many European countries (to various degrees, not every country has turned into Hungary), it's getting worse. And I don't see what's going to change that.

I used to be in favour of an EU "federal state". Now, I'm not so sure. Political union makes sense for countries with similar culture and economic interests. But as it is, I see regional blocks, not political Europe. Maybe dropping the common currency and splitting the EU into "mini-EUs" would be a better approach?

Re: Open Letter from a Eurocitizen Living in London: Brits, Vote for Brexit

#12

Post by eponeponepon »

Oletros wrote: post #8
neximo4 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The choice is really for British people not Euro mainlanders. The western European nations, particularly the French do not like the UK in the EU. There's a lot to be gained from being in the EU. As a startup having the possibility to 'passport' into the EU is one of the most magnificent things, one license 28+ countries. This includes banking & finance (FCA) licenses. It is enviable to do this even in the US where 50…

> The choice is really for British people not Euro mainlanders Perhaps then should be a referendum to ask the "Euro mainlanders" if they want a UK with the privileges they have > There's a lot to be gained from being in the EU Yes, but with the same rules than all the other countries, not like now that they cherry pick what they want.

  > Perhaps then should be a referendum to ask the "Euro 
  > mainlanders" if they want a UK with the privileges 
  > they have
The exact same sentiment (and it's an ugly one, I might add) was floated by less savoury corners of political discourse in England in the run-up to the Scottish independence referendum. It's not helpful; please don't stoop to it.

Re: Open Letter from a Eurocitizen Living in London: Brits, Vote for Brexit

#13

Post by mercurial »

Oletros wrote: post #8
neximo4 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The choice is really for British people not Euro mainlanders. The western European nations, particularly the French do not like the UK in the EU. There's a lot to be gained from being in the EU. As a startup having the possibility to 'passport' into the EU is one of the most magnificent things, one license 28+ countries. This includes banking & finance (FCA) licenses. It is enviable to do this even in the US where 50…

> The choice is really for British people not Euro mainlanders Perhaps then should be a referendum to ask the "Euro mainlanders" if they want a UK with the privileges they have > There's a lot to be gained from being in the EU Yes, but with the same rules than all the other countries, not like now that they cherry pick what they want.

> Yes, but with the same rules than all the other countries

Plenty (if not all) EU countries have negotiated exception to various treaties. It's the nature of these "exceptions" which matter (like the UK wanting a voice in the Euro policy, despite not being part of the Eurozone, and doing everything they can to prevent reforms of their bloated and dangerous banking sector).

Re: Open Letter from a Eurocitizen Living in London: Brits, Vote for Brexit

#14

Post by toyg »

eponeponepon wrote: post #4

Condensed somewhat: "Dear British voters: Give up. Your objectionable government renders you people unwelcome in our club, and I want you out." Condensed further: "Dear British voters: Screw yourselves. Literally." Either way, this piece propounds a deeply and unnecessarily divisive opinion. We are not our government, and it saddens me greatly to be reminded that the exclusionist prejudices half the Commons are curre…

The last few paragraphs make it clear it's mostly a satyrical take: the author wouldn't vote for brexit if he were British, because there is nothing to gain for the average guy, and even Farage would end up without the only parliament he managed to get elected to.

But below the satyrical level, there is a point. The British government has long been unpopular in European circles. British politicians insist in interpreting the EU as a trade zone rather than a long-term federalist project, and this is at odd with pretty much everyone else. Also, the EU got too big too fast, and if it is to ever make real progress again, it will have to slim down and lose troublesome countries (UK but also some of the Eastern bloc and maybe Greece). In that sense, Brexit might be a belated step forward for the Union, and it would likely hit only the British themselves (well, maybe some French companies too).

Re: Open Letter from a Eurocitizen Living in London: Brits, Vote for Brexit

#15

Post by anexprogrammer »

As someone who spent 20 or more years believing Britain should leave the EEC/EU for the last decade or so I've been an increasingly enthusiastic European. Not because I believe in the institution as such, but because it has become the only real check on our ever more broken democracy.

Dear letter writer, the view from London counts for nothing, you should try a view from the minor colonies (UK outside London and the home counties).

Re: Open Letter from a Eurocitizen Living in London: Brits, Vote for Brexit

#16

Post by mercurial »

calpaterson wrote: post #3

> increasingly interdependent world where European nation-states are decreasingly relevant. I find this (fairly common) statement pretty opaque. I'd appreciate someone explaining what he means and why it's a good argument.

My take on it: the EU works by having state surrender part of their national sovereignty, and instead go for a set of commonly-agreed rules.

However, transcontinental treaties like TTIP and its ISDS provision would effectively remove a big chunk of each nation's (and the EU's as a whole) capacity to make decision which could be seen as "business-unfriendly". Additionally, the fact that modern economies are so intertwined make them quite fragile (witness the way the financial crisis crossed oceans), which in turn mean less control by national governments.

Re: Open Letter from a Eurocitizen Living in London: Brits, Vote for Brexit

#17

Post by return0 »

mercurial wrote: post #11

Is the European voice fading? When was "political Europe" ever a thing? Each crisis sees individual European governments (or at best, regional blocks) go in their own direction. You can even watch the farce unfold right now, with the attitude towards Greece, where the neighbouring countries are basically saying "that's not our problem". And let's not even talk about the "European voice" on the topic of EU foreign pol…

There are other pressures however. In a multipolar world, with the rise of the chinese and the russian, a european pole sounds more fitting.

Re: Open Letter from a Eurocitizen Living in London: Brits, Vote for Brexit

#18

Post by toyg »

calpaterson wrote: post #3

> increasingly interdependent world where European nation-states are decreasingly relevant. I find this (fairly common) statement pretty opaque. I'd appreciate someone explaining what he means and why it's a good argument.

Except France, nobody in Europe has the defence budget to be relevant anywhere in the world. Likewise, there is no appetite for increasing such budgets; but a combination of all of them and the economic muscle they have behind, is mighty enough to be paid attention to. A boycott by this or that market is fairly irrelevant in the global scheme of things, but an EU-wide blockade is an existential threat for a lot of people (including recalcitrant actors like China and Israel).

Re: Open Letter from a Eurocitizen Living in London: Brits, Vote for Brexit

#19

Post by return0 »

neximo4 wrote: post #9
Oletros wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The choice is really for British people not Euro mainlanders Perhaps then should be a referendum to ask the "Euro mainlanders" if they want a UK with the privileges they have > There's a lot to be gained from being in the EU Yes, but with the same rules than all the other countries, not like now that they cherry pick what they want.

> Perhaps then should be a referendum to ask the "Euro mainlanders" if they want a UK with the privileges they have. The EU mainlander area's elected representatives forged this deal. The privileges the UK sought like the 'red card' system apply to the whole of the EU. There's nothing stopping an EU country from getting the same terms on the integration bit, indeed some countries have done that to varying degrees - S…

but Norway, Iceland and switzerland are not part of the EU.

Re: Open Letter from a Eurocitizen Living in London: Brits, Vote for Brexit

#20

Post by narag »

calpaterson wrote: post #3

> increasingly interdependent world where European nation-states are decreasingly relevant. I find this (fairly common) statement pretty opaque. I'd appreciate someone explaining what he means and why it's a good argument.

I'm not sure. But it could be about EU legislation. So called "directives" are actually legally binding and of higher rank than national laws.

Also ask Tsipras if he has any idea what this is about :)

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