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Jai Language Primer

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Re: Jai Language Primer

#11

Post by davexunit »

aerique wrote: post #6
whitegrape wrote: post #3

I wonder if Blow has ever looked at Nim. Sometimes I hallucinate that game devs will have an Awakening and realize it's the way forward.

I've got the same dream but about Lispy languages, preferably Common Lisp. I'm sure more people around here have the same dream about their favorite language :-)

I look at all these new languages with horrificly complicated syntax and wish for s-expressions. Lisp is perfectly well suited for game development, too, and not just for scripting. There are many implementations around with fast optimizing compilers, JIT compilers, and other modern features that make things run fast. When I see languages like what Jonathan Blow made, I think that most of the features can be implemented as extensions to your Lisp of choice.

Re: Jai Language Primer

#12

Post by weavie »

aerique wrote: post #6
whitegrape wrote: post #3

I wonder if Blow has ever looked at Nim. Sometimes I hallucinate that game devs will have an Awakening and realize it's the way forward.

I've got the same dream but about Lispy languages, preferably Common Lisp. I'm sure more people around here have the same dream about their favorite language :-)

Yes, how much fun folks could have if you could connect a Repl into your game and arbitrarily change the rules on the fly!

Re: Jai Language Primer

#13

Post by w0utert »

gregstula wrote: post #10

> Abstractions like RAII, constructors and destructors, polymorphism, and exceptions were invented with the intention of solving problems that game programmers don’t have This is the only part of the Jai philosophy I struggle to understand. How is an explicit delete keyword better than deterministic destruction? From my perspective, the former method reintroduces the problem the latter method solves. Also, polymorphi…

>> This is the only part of the Jai philosophy I struggle to understand. How is an explicit delete keyword better than deterministic destruction? From my perspective, the former method reintroduces the problem the latter method solves.

My interpretation of statements like "problems game programmer's don't have" is that they don't mean game programmers don't run into situations where things like RAII or polymorphism would be useful, just that the stereotypical game programmer doesn't care about using them because they have their own ways to get the same results. Which often involves programming practices that aren't considered safe for most other application domains.

The thing with 'game programmers' when referring to people like Jonathan Blow and e.g. Casey Muratori (who does Handmade Hero), is that they have been writing the same kinds of systems for so long, and have developed so much 'muscle memory' to avoid the pitfalls of their coding style, that they appear to have gotten a blind spot for all the deficiencies in the code they write. It works, it's efficient, and someone with the same mindset could make progress on it despite of the minefields they've created, but it's usually not 'good code'. The Handmade Hero code for example is atrocious if you ask me.

It never ceases to amaze me how people who are so smart, much smarter than myself, fail to acknowledge all the ways in which they could write better code without throwing out any of the goals they've set for themselves (performance, compilation speed, predictability, ...). All things considered, it does not surprise me that so many games ship in a half-broken state.

Re: Jai Language Primer

#15

Post by alaties »

gregstula wrote: post #10

> Abstractions like RAII, constructors and destructors, polymorphism, and exceptions were invented with the intention of solving problems that game programmers don’t have This is the only part of the Jai philosophy I struggle to understand. How is an explicit delete keyword better than deterministic destruction? From my perspective, the former method reintroduces the problem the latter method solves. Also, polymorphi…

Would you mind explaining or linking to a good document on "C++98 style runtime polymorphism"?

Re: Jai Language Primer

#16

Post by davexunit »

weavie wrote: post #12
aerique wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've got the same dream but about Lispy languages, preferably Common Lisp. I'm sure more people around here have the same dream about their favorite language :-)

Yes, how much fun folks could have if you could connect a Repl into your game and arbitrarily change the rules on the fly!

(shameless plug alert)

This is how my WIP (verrrry WIP) game engine written in Guile Scheme works. It is built explicitly to enable iterative, live development.

2 year old video of a precursor to the current project: https://dthompson.us/functional-reactive-programming-in-sche...

Simple example program: https://git.dthompson.us/sly.git/blob/HEAD:/examples/simple....

More complicated minesweeper example: https://git.dthompson.us/sly.git/blob/HEAD:/examples/mines/m...

Home page: https://dthompson.us/pages/software/sly.html

Hoping to get a 0.2 release out the door in time for the Lisp Game Jam coming up in April.

Re: Jai Language Primer

#17

Post by ilek »

w0utert wrote: post #13
gregstula wrote: post #10

> Abstractions like RAII, constructors and destructors, polymorphism, and exceptions were invented with the intention of solving problems that game programmers don’t have This is the only part of the Jai philosophy I struggle to understand. How is an explicit delete keyword better than deterministic destruction? From my perspective, the former method reintroduces the problem the latter method solves. Also, polymorphi…

>> This is the only part of the Jai philosophy I struggle to understand. How is an explicit delete keyword better than deterministic destruction? From my perspective, the former method reintroduces the problem the latter method solves. My interpretation of statements like "problems game programmer's don't have" is that they don't mean game programmers don't run into situations where things like RAII or polymorphism w…

Out of interest, why do you think the Handmade Hero code is atrocious?

I haven't kept up with it so I don't have much of an opinion.

Re: Jai Language Primer

#18

Post by gregstula »

davidgrenier wrote: post #9

I stopped caring at no garbage collection.

Do you know why Microsoft rewrote Minecraft in C++?

Games can certainly be successful in spite of performance problems, but why purposefully introduce them in the first place?

In the case of Notch, he used Java because he was most skilled at Java programming. The garbage collection, procedural generation, and multi-platform availability of the JVM allowed him to successfully release a massive hit as a solo indie developer.

At least that's one way to interpret it. Another way is that, had Notch been as skilled in C++ or (these days) Rust he could have made just as good of a cross platform game (even more so on mobile), that didn't concern itself with resource management outside of RAII and reference counting, was way more performant (no pauses), and in similar time frame as a skilled Java developer.

If you have a great idea use your favorite language. No doubt about that. You might be successful in spite of its specific deficiencies. However, if you are seeking a new language for a certain problem domain - like video games - choosing one with a feature that actively fights one of your fundamental goals (consistent framerate is only going to be a decision your users will regret you made.

It's funny that people like to say "users don't care what language it's written in". The fact that 8th graders know the the minecraft's garbage collector is a problem, suggests that using a garbage collected language for soft-realtime video games results in a seriously leaky abstraction.

Re: Jai Language Primer

#19

Post by [deleted] »

alaties wrote: post #15
gregstula wrote: post #10

> Abstractions like RAII, constructors and destructors, polymorphism, and exceptions were invented with the intention of solving problems that game programmers don’t have This is the only part of the Jai philosophy I struggle to understand. How is an explicit delete keyword better than deterministic destruction? From my perspective, the former method reintroduces the problem the latter method solves. Also, polymorphi…

Would you mind explaining or linking to a good document on "C++98 style runtime polymorphism"?

[deleted]

Re: Jai Language Primer

#20

Post by basketcasing »

davexunit wrote: post #11
aerique wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've got the same dream but about Lispy languages, preferably Common Lisp. I'm sure more people around here have the same dream about their favorite language :-)

I look at all these new languages with horrificly complicated syntax and wish for s-expressions. Lisp is perfectly well suited for game development, too, and not just for scripting. There are many implementations around with fast optimizing compilers, JIT compilers, and other modern features that make things run fast. When I see languages like what Jonathan Blow made, I think that most of the features can be implemen…

The one thing that keeps me away from Lisp/Scheme is the lack of built-in syntax for hashmaps and sets (I like Clojure's syntax, but don't want the JVM).

I've never gotten the hang of car/cdr and dotted pairs.

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