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Obama Pledges $4B to Computer Science in US Schools

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Re: Obama Pledges $4B to Computer Science in US Schools

#11

Post by grandDesigns »

mbubb wrote: post #7
throwaway420 wrote: post #6

People are intelligent in many different ways and I don't believe that most people have the abstract thinking skills necessary to really thrive in computer science. Forcing everybody to take part in computer science education is probably going to frustrate the hell out of most people (make them feel stupid and annoyed at having to do this stuff) and dumb down the curriculum for the small percentage of kids who would…

great points. I see this program and wonder why we (in the US) go into such contortions away from teaching - math. Just teach kids how to think in math and they will take to most CS topics like fish in water.

We already teach 12 years of math, from 1st grade to 12th: Addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, polynomials, rationals, pre-algebra, algebra, geometry, trigonometry, pre-calculus, calculus, sometimes probability and statistics. How much more math do you want?

Also, you do not need to know Calculus, or pre-calculus, or trigonometry, or geometry, or algebra, or pre-algebra in order to build, say an Android twitter app.

Re: Obama Pledges $4B to Computer Science in US Schools

#12

Post by grandDesigns »

throwaway420 wrote: post #6

People are intelligent in many different ways and I don't believe that most people have the abstract thinking skills necessary to really thrive in computer science. Forcing everybody to take part in computer science education is probably going to frustrate the hell out of most people (make them feel stupid and annoyed at having to do this stuff) and dumb down the curriculum for the small percentage of kids who would…

Right now, every single high school has (or, should have) teachers that can teach Biology, Chemistry, Physics, and Calculus.

Basic Java Programming is waaaaay easier to learn to any one of those.

Re: Obama Pledges $4B to Computer Science in US Schools

#13

Post by rayiner »

Only a tiny fraction of the population needs to understand computer science. Most people will struggle through it, learn to hate it, and immediately forget it after they graduate, just as they do with math and science. Meanwhile, college professors will have to spend inordinate amounts of time unteaching all the stupid things kids learned in K-12, because there is no way to structure these curricula in a way that serves as a good foundation for those who will actually major in the subject and is simultaneously approachable for everyone else.

Public education should serve some practical purpose: teaching kids the basic skills everyone needs to be productive in the workforce and to contribute as citizens. To that end, I'd advocate taking courses away instead of adding them. Math and science education in K-12 is a disaster and a waste of time for all but a small fraction of kids. We'd be better off taking those out, shortening mandatory education to K-10, and letting kids who actually want to go into particular fields study the relevant coursework when they're old enough to actually learn it properly.

Re: Obama Pledges $4B to Computer Science in US Schools

#14

Post by rorykoehler »

grandDesigns wrote: post #11
mbubb wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

great points. I see this program and wonder why we (in the US) go into such contortions away from teaching - math. Just teach kids how to think in math and they will take to most CS topics like fish in water.

We already teach 12 years of math, from 1st grade to 12th: Addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, polynomials, rationals, pre-algebra, algebra, geometry, trigonometry, pre-calculus, calculus, sometimes probability and statistics. How much more math do you want? Also, you do not need to know Calculus, or pre-calculus, or trigonometry, or geometry, or algebra, or pre-algebra in order to build, say an Android…

>Also, you do not need to know Calculus, or pre-calculus, or trigonometry, or geometry, or algebra, or pre-algebra in order to build, say an Android twitter app.

At this stage you don't really need to know comp sci either. Just watch a tutorial and follow the steps.

Re: Obama Pledges $4B to Computer Science in US Schools

#15

Post by mempko »

wrong_variable wrote: post #10

The real problem is not computer science. Everyone in the United States cannot be a programmer - its going to lead to the same problem we have with law, business, etc. Too many graduates leading to labour oversupply. Government will always be slower to respond then markets. So even though right now there is a shortage of programmers - it might not be the case once these student's graduate. So Govt is always one step…

Makes me wonder if education maybe should not be about satisfying markets.

Re: Obama Pledges $4B to Computer Science in US Schools

#16

Post by dragonwriter »

rayiner wrote: post #13

Only a tiny fraction of the population needs to understand computer science. Most people will struggle through it, learn to hate it, and immediately forget it after they graduate, just as they do with math and science. Meanwhile, college professors will have to spend inordinate amounts of time unteaching all the stupid things kids learned in K-12, because there is no way to structure these curricula in a way that ser…

I disagree with your claim about the impossibility.of broadly accessible foundational CS that is still good ground for majors; not only so I think it's possible, but I think at least one viable approach already exists in How to Design Programs -- the text itself may not be ideal for secondary students (though IIRC is been used successfully at that level), but the basic method and approach for teaching computing as a core subject is sound.

Re: Obama Pledges $4B to Computer Science in US Schools

#17

Post by mempko »

rayiner wrote: post #13

Only a tiny fraction of the population needs to understand computer science. Most people will struggle through it, learn to hate it, and immediately forget it after they graduate, just as they do with math and science. Meanwhile, college professors will have to spend inordinate amounts of time unteaching all the stupid things kids learned in K-12, because there is no way to structure these curricula in a way that ser…

Public education should not be about making good workforce for capitalists. It has a higher purpose.

Re: Obama Pledges $4B to Computer Science in US Schools

#18

Post by subpixel »

I currently teach basic CS in an inner-city school, on a volunteer basis.

Unfortunately, the problem isn't "US public schools lack {{important thing}}". The problem is that US public education is deeply broken.

It's interesting to see the momentum living wage/minimum income campaigns are getting. But education equality, for which there must be a better term, isn't often brought up.

At the school I'm in, when a kid with any potential comes in, the only course of action is to to help her transfer out to a school where she will actually learn something. Sadly, this is not the exception - there are literally millions of kids around the country in similar schools.

Re: Obama Pledges $4B to Computer Science in US Schools

#19

Post by rayiner »

dragonwriter wrote: post #16
rayiner wrote: post #13

Only a tiny fraction of the population needs to understand computer science. Most people will struggle through it, learn to hate it, and immediately forget it after they graduate, just as they do with math and science. Meanwhile, college professors will have to spend inordinate amounts of time unteaching all the stupid things kids learned in K-12, because there is no way to structure these curricula in a way that ser…

I disagree with your claim about the impossibility.of broadly accessible foundational CS that is still good ground for majors; not only so I think it's possible , but I think at least one viable approach already exists in How to Design Programs -- the text itself may not be ideal for secondary students (though IIRC is been used successfully at that level), but the basic method and approach for teaching computing as a…

I'll check out that text, but I'm skeptical. We had a CS requirement for all engineering majors at Georgia Tech, and even among that group it was frustrating and largely a waste of everyone's time.

Of course, I also don't think we've succeeded in that goal with math and science either. Physics was a requirement in high school, but our physics classes in college taught everything from the ground up because god only knew what kids learned in K-12.

Re: Obama Pledges $4B to Computer Science in US Schools

#20

Post by rayiner »

mempko wrote: post #17
rayiner wrote: post #13

Only a tiny fraction of the population needs to understand computer science. Most people will struggle through it, learn to hate it, and immediately forget it after they graduate, just as they do with math and science. Meanwhile, college professors will have to spend inordinate amounts of time unteaching all the stupid things kids learned in K-12, because there is no way to structure these curricula in a way that ser…

Public education should not be about making good workforce for capitalists. It has a higher purpose.

Sure, but where does math and science fit into that higher purpose? I think the focus on those is actually driven by the (futile) desire to please capitalists--because good paying jobs often require those skills. If we're talking about educating citizens, I think it'd be way more valuable to replace chemistry and physics with courses in the philosophy of science and algebra and geometry with courses in logic and statistics.

It's insane to me that we spend so much effort trying to teach kids subjects like algebra that they'll never really understand and that 95% will never use again, and we don't teach courses in European history, formal logic, or Bayesian statistics--subjects that would give kids practical insight into issues that affect them directly.

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