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On the Proposed PHP Code of Conduct

paul-m-jones.com

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Re: On the Proposed PHP Code of Conduct

#11

Post by gherkin0 »

Tomte wrote: post #9
tzs wrote: post #4

(This story became flagged between the time I finished this comment and the time I submitted it. I used "vouch" to unflag so I could post the comment anyway, then "unvouch" to undo my vouch. While it was vouched, it got upvotes and this comment got upvotes, leading me to believe that there is interest in discussing this, but I'll leave it to others to make that decision) The proposed code of conduct is terrible, beca…

What's vouch? The opposite to flag? Available to hand-picked users or is that based on another karma level? It's always fascinating to learn about mechanisms I've never even heard about, either by such comments or by dang's mails telling you to do X.

I was curious too, and I found this post explaining it:

http://blog.ycombinator.com/two-hn-announcements

Re: On the Proposed PHP Code of Conduct

#12

Post by Bahamut »

exstudent2 wrote: post #8
Bahamut wrote: post #6

This post seems to be complaining about oppression, but doesn't seem to address the opposite end, oppressive attitudes/terminology used to intimidate those advocating for social equality. It offers no pathway to making the situation better. This sort of discussion seems to go in an endless loop since one side wants to advocate for equality & try to use as many tools as possible to that end, while the other side does…

The problem is that these CoCs are being pushed on open source projects not because there is or was a problem with that project, but simply to push the politics of the CoC authors. Was there actual bad behavior going on in the PHP project that prompted the CoC to be submitted? In the case of Opal, there wasn't. One of the core contributors said something on his personal Twitter that offended someone, then people came…

Forking is an extraordinary measure, and often not practical - that is usually a very poor option.

Personally, I disagree with your approach to dealing with a toxic community. Having done moderation in various forums/chat rooms & now open source for almost 12 years, that's usually an approach that encourages poor behavior through insufficient action. As to a solution, I don't know what would be the best way to prevent it, but I'm not so naive to suggest there is an easy one-sided path to avoid it.

Re: On the Proposed PHP Code of Conduct

#13

Post by CoCplusgood »

tptacek wrote: post #2

This is a an argument built on appeals both to Eric S. Raymond and the last several years of Twitter/Tumblr drama. It doesn't even discuss the CoC; instead, it adopts as a premise that any CoC that refers to "safety”, “welcoming” and “respect" must be tool of Twitter oppressors. There are valid arguments against widespread adoption of CoCs (for instance: they can end up as window dressing). But this isn't an example…

I knew that the #1 "rebuttal" of this would be: "links to ESR: disqualified!"

>it adopts as a premise that any CoC that refers to "safety”, “welcoming” and “respect" must be tool of Twitter oppressors

No it doesn't. It explains its argument for why that is, and provides examples.

Edit: I also knew, when I saw this post had been up for an hour, that it wouldn't make it to hour 2, no matter how many upvotes.

Re: On the Proposed PHP Code of Conduct

#14

Post by avn2109 »

Bahamut wrote: post #6

This post seems to be complaining about oppression, but doesn't seem to address the opposite end, oppressive attitudes/terminology used to intimidate those advocating for social equality. It offers no pathway to making the situation better. This sort of discussion seems to go in an endless loop since one side wants to advocate for equality & try to use as many tools as possible to that end, while the other side does…

>> "...one side wants to advocate for equality..."

The core premise of the linked article is that "equality" is merely a smokescreen used by one side to mask more nefarious objectives.[0]

[0] Note that I am not making any claims about the truth or falsehood of that premise, but rather am making a descriptive statement about the article's contents.

Re: On the Proposed PHP Code of Conduct

#15

Post by exstudent2 »

Bahamut wrote: post #12
exstudent2 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that these CoCs are being pushed on open source projects not because there is or was a problem with that project, but simply to push the politics of the CoC authors. Was there actual bad behavior going on in the PHP project that prompted the CoC to be submitted? In the case of Opal, there wasn't. One of the core contributors said something on his personal Twitter that offended someone, then people came…

Forking is an extraordinary measure, and often not practical - that is usually a very poor option. Personally, I disagree with your approach to dealing with a toxic community. Having done moderation in various forums/chat rooms & now open source for almost 12 years, that's usually an approach that encourages poor behavior through insufficient action. As to a solution, I don't know what would be the best way to preven…

The thing is these communities aren't actually toxic. Large open source projects take patches based on merit. Lots of people don't even have human identifiable usernames or avatars on Github and yet get patches accepted.

The real toxic behavior that's been happening in open source over the past 5 or so years is the influx of non-developers forcing their political causes into projects and distracting from actual development while bringing negative media attention to OSS via clickbait/ragebait friendly stories.

Re: On the Proposed PHP Code of Conduct

#16

Post by mooseburger »

CoCplusgood wrote: post #13
tptacek wrote: post #2

This is a an argument built on appeals both to Eric S. Raymond and the last several years of Twitter/Tumblr drama. It doesn't even discuss the CoC; instead, it adopts as a premise that any CoC that refers to "safety”, “welcoming” and “respect" must be tool of Twitter oppressors. There are valid arguments against widespread adoption of CoCs (for instance: they can end up as window dressing). But this isn't an example…

I knew that the #1 "rebuttal" of this would be: "links to ESR: disqualified!" >it adopts as a premise that any CoC that refers to "safety”, “welcoming” and “respect" must be tool of Twitter oppressors No it doesn't. It explains its argument for why that is, and provides examples. Edit: I also knew, when I saw this post had been up for an hour, that it wouldn't make it to hour 2, no matter how many upvotes.

Why did you think it wouldn't make it? Does HN have a policy to avoid anything related to the SJW mess? Genuinely curious, I'm a new user.

Re: On the Proposed PHP Code of Conduct

#17

Post by CoCplusgood »

mooseburger wrote: post #16
CoCplusgood wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I knew that the #1 "rebuttal" of this would be: "links to ESR: disqualified!" >it adopts as a premise that any CoC that refers to "safety”, “welcoming” and “respect" must be tool of Twitter oppressors No it doesn't. It explains its argument for why that is, and provides examples. Edit: I also knew, when I saw this post had been up for an hour, that it wouldn't make it to hour 2, no matter how many upvotes.

Why did you think it wouldn't make it? Does HN have a policy to avoid anything related to the SJW mess? Genuinely curious, I'm a new user.

Yes. Things like this often get memory-holed. I don't know if it's by users or mods, but because I have showdead on and this post still can't be found on the front (or next) page, I tend to think the latter. It also doesn't say "flagged" on it.

Re: On the Proposed PHP Code of Conduct

#18

Post by tptacek »

CoCplusgood wrote: post #17
mooseburger wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why did you think it wouldn't make it? Does HN have a policy to avoid anything related to the SJW mess? Genuinely curious, I'm a new user.

Yes. Things like this often get memory-holed. I don't know if it's by users or mods, but because I have showdead on and this post still can't be found on the front (or next) page, I tend to think the latter. It also doesn't say "flagged" on it.

I sure as shit flagged it.

Re: On the Proposed PHP Code of Conduct

#19

Post by gherkin0 »

CoCplusgood wrote: post #17
mooseburger wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why did you think it wouldn't make it? Does HN have a policy to avoid anything related to the SJW mess? Genuinely curious, I'm a new user.

Yes. Things like this often get memory-holed. I don't know if it's by users or mods, but because I have showdead on and this post still can't be found on the front (or next) page, I tend to think the latter. It also doesn't say "flagged" on it.

This is a weird post: it's been popping on and off the front page for me, which might have something to do with the "vouch" feature I just learned about. It seems like it's the object of a tug-of-war.

Re: On the Proposed PHP Code of Conduct

#20

Post by forgottenpass »

Bahamut wrote: post #6

This post seems to be complaining about oppression, but doesn't seem to address the opposite end, oppressive attitudes/terminology used to intimidate those advocating for social equality. It offers no pathway to making the situation better. This sort of discussion seems to go in an endless loop since one side wants to advocate for equality & try to use as many tools as possible to that end, while the other side does…

For all the talk about an endless loop, your post doesn't seem to escape the very loop you bemoan.

I don't think the framing you present is helpful. Your post assumes all disagreement with the means is from people who disagree with the ends (are "reactionary"). Acknowledging that some may agree with ends but not means is the easiest way to start the process of breaking the loop and moving to meaningful conversation.

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