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The Product Engineer

essays.davidchouinard.com

11–20 of 85 posts

Re: The Product Engineer

#11
post #9

Was hoping this would be about hiring, because I've been thinking a lot recently about how shitty hiring is for these people. I've been interviewed for a lot of these ostensibly "product" positions this year. A lot of it has to do with the company not even understanding what they're hiring for. Initial screeners would be all about product, product, product, but then they'd give me a new grad programming trivia test a…

What should we be asking/looking for/testing?

I'd hand them a piece of paper and ask them to sketch out a profile page that's user friendly.

Then I'd ask them how they'd design the schema for that.

Then I'd ask them to sketch out the admin interface for managing users and how they'd implement that.

If they start asking questions about permissions and roles and such I'd be really impressed.

Essentially I'd act like a client/end user who kinda knows what they want to see if they can ask the right questions.

I'm not looking for a UX expert but more someone who thinks about the process and end result as well as a nice way to implement the code side.

I'd ask programming related questions as well but if (when) I hire I want someone who thinks about the end user experience while they are developing, I don't live in a world where a job comes with a 400 page spec and neither would they.

I take the view that I'd rather have someone who can think about how the end system will work than someone who knows ever single API for whatever language I'm hiring for, one of those you can find on google in 30 seconds the other not so much.

Re: The Product Engineer

#12
post #9

Was hoping this would be about hiring, because I've been thinking a lot recently about how shitty hiring is for these people. I've been interviewed for a lot of these ostensibly "product" positions this year. A lot of it has to do with the company not even understanding what they're hiring for. Initial screeners would be all about product, product, product, but then they'd give me a new grad programming trivia test a…

I interviewed at many of the large tech firms this fall, and I've found that Google's UX Engineer ladder did the best job of asking questions I should reasonably be expected to know without getting too hung up on an "algorithms" or "CS fundamentals" screening.

Re: The Product Engineer

#13
post #9

Was hoping this would be about hiring, because I've been thinking a lot recently about how shitty hiring is for these people. I've been interviewed for a lot of these ostensibly "product" positions this year. A lot of it has to do with the company not even understanding what they're hiring for. Initial screeners would be all about product, product, product, but then they'd give me a new grad programming trivia test a…

What should we be asking/looking for/testing?

It depends on the company, but I'm a big fan of pairing with a developer on something they're working on for an hour or so. The dynamics of the interview completely changes from "I need to figure out hidden knowledge that the interviewer knows already" to "I need to work with this person to find out a solution together", which I think is quite a bit less stressful. You're also working on real problems that — though they might not be a glamorous interview question — will be much closer to what "real" work at the company will be.

Put another way: I've probably done a dozen or two product interviews this year, and have still never seen a full stack web request. I mean, I haven't seen a controller action, or a view, or even a model for that matter. And that's the area that's my entire job, really: I build screens and hook things together and make things work for users. As much as feasible, I'd like to be able to demonstrate those types of talents in the interview process.

Re: The Product Engineer

#14
post #9

Was hoping this would be about hiring, because I've been thinking a lot recently about how shitty hiring is for these people. I've been interviewed for a lot of these ostensibly "product" positions this year. A lot of it has to do with the company not even understanding what they're hiring for. Initial screeners would be all about product, product, product, but then they'd give me a new grad programming trivia test a…

This is a very strong feeling of mine and early reviewers of the essay railed at that frustration. It's striking how much the hiring dance feels full of misplaced energy.

There's no doubt hiring for product engineers is horribly broken, and in a way that holds back the entire ecosystem.

The essay is not about interviewing, because I don't have strong alternatives to suggest.

First we need vocabulary, then we'll need process. I'm in a quest to understand how to hire for this role: I'll write a new essay once I understand it.

Re: The Product Engineer

#15
This really resonates with me. There seems to be a trend of frowning on these types as 'generalists' who don't have sufficiently hard tech skills, but 'creates great products from the ground up' is a specialization in itself, and an extremely critical one. Someone who will do (and learn) whatever it takes to put out high quality work is someone who will be a top performer at almost any company, regardless of how they would do on a Google algorithms quiz.

This mismatch was part of what motivated me to build MakerSlate [1], a résumé optimized for just this type of creator.

1: https://makerslate.io

Re: The Product Engineer

#16

This really resonates with me. There seems to be a trend of frowning on these types as 'generalists' who don't have sufficiently hard tech skills, but 'creates great products from the ground up' is a specialization in itself, and an extremely critical one. Someone who will do (and learn) whatever it takes to put out high quality work is someone who will be a top performer at almost any company, regardless of how they…

It's a good post and a good thought.

Software is a giant LEGO set with no instructions, and it takes a good mixture of how to build things and knowing what you can build.

A lot of times people want to reduce product management to "visit customers, ask what they want, make a spreadsheet", but I think it's more than that. To do it well, you have to know the possibilities the existing stack could grow into, and also what it can't easily grow into, and set a vision that is well beyond what the masses point at. And you also have to know the industry enough to know how to build things that make sense to end users.

In maybe 80% of the jobs I've had, non-technical product managers have been probably the single most powerful force to get me to leave an organization, because I always get very invested in a product and want to see it do the right thing, and I want to work on and design the right things. Working on the wrong things - features nobody is going to use, features that won't work, features that don't take advantage of a great opportunity or make a product great to use - can be demoralizing. I want to work on the thing that will make the most difference -- and then be able to witness that difference in hearing those stories from userland.

And the second you take the design out of it (and reduce software down to implementation), for me, the fun parts are gone (unless there's some heavy C.S. or architecture parts, which in CRUD stuff is rare) and it's just implementation.

Also - I will say, having done it, product management is always one of the most misdefined and potentially most disliked positions from the outside. It's the easiest to please no one while still trying incredibly hard to do the right thing, and probably the most important make or break function - because a company is totally viewed by what it decides to create. Further, a good PM can be made powerless if he can't get engineering do anything, and frequently organizational lines are set up so that he cannot. It's a position that needs to be elevated because it's so important, but instead almost gets lumped in with project management and viewed as easily interchangeable; the result is bad PMs make it hard for good PMs to get any respect. There's a huge standard deviation.

Product management can also get in a bad spot when you give a few people absolute product control, and you ignore the ideas from developers and others throughout the company. So even if you are in this spot, and it's respected, you have to give voice to the entire company and try to focus sometimes hundreds of laser beams all pointed in different directions.

The C.S. I majored in was about designing things, a lot of software engineering is about implementing features out of canned components other people have already designed. I think there's a lot of lost possibility in that, and we should encourage everyone to be more creative and blur the lines more in how we define software positions.

Re: The Product Engineer

#17

This really resonates with me. There seems to be a trend of frowning on these types as 'generalists' who don't have sufficiently hard tech skills, but 'creates great products from the ground up' is a specialization in itself, and an extremely critical one. Someone who will do (and learn) whatever it takes to put out high quality work is someone who will be a top performer at almost any company, regardless of how they…

I love this. What a great idea.

Re: The Product Engineer

#18
I consider myself as a product engineer too and the traditional interview process is definitely broken for someone like me. I think @holman nailed the current interview process with this statement "I need to figure out hidden knowledge that the interviewer knows already". I'm glad to know there are others who share my frustrations.

Having said that, I think for my next interview I am going to go in telling them who I am. I will own the Product engineer title and let them know what a Product Engineer is and what we excel at. If that is something they are interested in then we can continue otherwise it will be a waste of time for everyone.

If I were to design an interview process for someone like me I would come up with a simple product. It can be something as simple as a List web app ala Trello. Then have them design the product for individual use, then layer on collaboration requirements and then layer on sharing requirements, if time permits. This will allow me to know how they think about the product. If they suggest collaboration when designing for individual use then that's awesome because it tells me they are already thinking about where the product can go.

Re: The Product Engineer

#19
post #2

This really hit home for me. I was recently looking for a job so these ideas are fresh on my mind. What I have been trying to figure out, is it better to work for a company that has a good product strategy, or an other wise good company without a product strategy? At the time, my thoughts were to find a company that needs a product minded developer. A company that has everything else figured out but product.

A company that hasn't prioritized product strategy isn't going to suddenly start prioritizing it once you get there. You are more likely to be ignored.

Go somewhere that does product well, especially if you're early in your career.

Re: The Product Engineer

#20
As a candidate you might have better luck with companies that embrace Holacracy [0]. On the recruiting side, I have a hunch that the best way to get more Product Engineers is to have the Product Engineers in your org conduct interviews in addition to the pure technical ones. A requirement for this is that the Product Engineer's title is made explicit, otherwise "wtf, why is this person always doing the interviewing."

[0] http://www.holacracy.org/how-it-works/

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