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Lavoisier died at age 50, on the guillotine

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Re: Lavoisier died at age 50, on the guillotine

#11

Post by cmdkeen »

geyang wrote: post #10
julienchastang wrote: post #5

The murder of Lavoisier is one of the most horrible outcomes of the French Revolution -- which was generally horrific, mass drownings [1], Reign of Terror (the word 'terrorism' comes from this episode in French history[2]) and whatnot. That is what I think about on Le Quatorze Juillet. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drownings_at_Nantes [2] http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=terrorism

another fun fact about them: Marie-Anne Paulze Lavoisier, his wife remarried to a rich publisher after Lavoisier's death, who supported her to publish a lot of the work. (both awesome people) David, the guy who painted this portrait was the person who signed Lavoisier's guillotine papers. The story goes David was an amateur scientist, had some presentations, and was humiliated when Lavoisier make it clear that it was…

David died in 1825. He fell out of favour for his part in the Terror but was kept on and even offered roles in the restored monarchy.

Re: Lavoisier died at age 50, on the guillotine

#12

Post by ddebernardy »

julienchastang wrote: post #5

The murder of Lavoisier is one of the most horrible outcomes of the French Revolution -- which was generally horrific, mass drownings [1], Reign of Terror (the word 'terrorism' comes from this episode in French history[2]) and whatnot. That is what I think about on Le Quatorze Juillet. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drownings_at_Nantes [2] http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=terrorism

I'm suspicious that you can really describe the French Revolution as "generally horrific". Sure, there were quite a few executions (~40k or so), that were often arbitrary and spectacular. And the Vendée rebellion got massacred (~100k+ depending on the source) [1]. But what really contributed to the death toll were the Revolutionary wars [2] and the Napoleon campaigns [3].

By contrast, modern warfare with machine guns, artillery, bombers, and genocide regularly yielded much higher death tolls [4].

[1] http://necrometrics.com/wars18c.htm#FrRev1

[2] http://necrometrics.com/wars18c.htm#FrRev

[3] http://necrometrics.com/wars19c.htm#Napoleonic

[4] http://necrometrics.com/20c5m.htm

Re: Lavoisier died at age 50, on the guillotine

#13

Post by jacquesm »

SeldomSoup wrote: post #7
pfortuny wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not the only one to die just because, in those times.

The French Revolution saw so much bloodshed for so little change (for the ordinary people at least).

I agree it was a lot of bloodshed but eventually the change was huge. France is still by far the most socialist country in Western Europe.

Re: Lavoisier died at age 50, on the guillotine

#14

Post by dudul »

julienchastang wrote: post #5

The murder of Lavoisier is one of the most horrible outcomes of the French Revolution -- which was generally horrific, mass drownings [1], Reign of Terror (the word 'terrorism' comes from this episode in French history[2]) and whatnot. That is what I think about on Le Quatorze Juillet. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drownings_at_Nantes [2] http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=terrorism

Revolutions are violent, especially when they are over-throwing 10 centuries of monarchy.

Did you know that the 14th of July is not a celebration of the storming of the Bastille? It is actually celebrating the 14th of July 1790, the Fête de la Fédération, a pacific celebration of the French nation.

Re: Lavoisier died at age 50, on the guillotine

#15

Post by staunch »

ameen wrote: post #4

Such injustice. Who knows what else he had on his mind before he was decapitated. Bias does no one any good. He was punished only because of his social standing and profession. He did no ill towards his fellow frenchmen yet was butchered to satiate their hatred towards the "elite".

It seems that he was hardly an innocent bystander.

> Lavoisier was a powerful member of a number of aristocratic councils, and an administrator of the Ferme Générale. The Ferme générale was one of the most hated components of the Ancien Régime because of the profits it took at the expense of the state, the secrecy of the terms of its contracts, and the violence of its armed agents. All of these political and economic activities enabled him to fund his scientific research.

He had a direct hand in oppressing an enslaved population, extracting their wealth, and using it for his own means.

Re: Lavoisier died at age 50, on the guillotine

#16

Post by obrero »

ameen wrote: post #4

Such injustice. Who knows what else he had on his mind before he was decapitated. Bias does no one any good. He was punished only because of his social standing and profession. He did no ill towards his fellow frenchmen yet was butchered to satiate their hatred towards the "elite".

> butchered to satiate their hatred towards the "elite"

The elite are the people at the top. Being as this head was chopped off in Dr. Guillotin's invention at the behest of the people running his country, I'd say he was no longer part of a noble, elite class when he took his last breath.

He may have been smart, but he was not smart enough to avoid being on the violent, rapacious Ferme générale, which expropriated wealth for the king from working people creating wealth. French society had enough of this parasitism after too many long years, so off to the guillotine with Lavoisier and the king, and good riddance. Chemistry somehow managed to progress after his death.

Nowadays we have the heir LP's sending money to VC's, "activist shareholders" trying to steal more from the workers at corporations creating wealth, judges and bondholders in the US trying to use their dirty deals with Argentina's old junta to steal more from Argentina. The USA is rife with parasites, and many feel the same way about our modern parasites as those that lead Lavoisier to the guillotine.

Re: Lavoisier died at age 50, on the guillotine

#17

Post by cdavid »

SeldomSoup wrote: post #7
pfortuny wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not the only one to die just because, in those times.

The French Revolution saw so much bloodshed for so little change (for the ordinary people at least).

The XIXth century history in Europe would have been much different if it were not for the French revolution (and Napoleon). For horrific Napoleon reign was, it marked the end of the constant warfare that plagued European states before (congress of Vienna).

Pre revolution, France was also one of the most backward political system in Western Europe, especially compared to England or the Netherlands. It also marked the end of the Church power in Western Europe

Re: Lavoisier died at age 50, on the guillotine

#18

Post by MattSteelblade »

obrero wrote: post #16
ameen wrote: post #4

Such injustice. Who knows what else he had on his mind before he was decapitated. Bias does no one any good. He was punished only because of his social standing and profession. He did no ill towards his fellow frenchmen yet was butchered to satiate their hatred towards the "elite".

> butchered to satiate their hatred towards the "elite" The elite are the people at the top. Being as this head was chopped off in Dr. Guillotin's invention at the behest of the people running his country, I'd say he was no longer part of a noble, elite class when he took his last breath. He may have been smart, but he was not smart enough to avoid being on the violent, rapacious Ferme générale, which expropriated we…

As an aside, Antoine Louis is generally credited with designing the guillotine, not Dr. Guillotin, a physician who wanted to reform capital punishment.

Re: Lavoisier died at age 50, on the guillotine

#19

Post by mercurial »

jacquesm wrote: post #13
SeldomSoup wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The French Revolution saw so much bloodshed for so little change (for the ordinary people at least).

I agree it was a lot of bloodshed but eventually the change was huge. France is still by far the most socialist country in Western Europe.

The major impact was the rise of national identities following the revolutionary wars and Napoleonic conquests. The same population who took part in the Terror voted happily for noted autocrat Napoleon, then lived under kings of various levels of mediocrity, briefly under a Republic before electing the then-President Emperor (because that turned out so well the first time), before returning to a Republican regime after being beaten by Bismark. The current blend of social democracy (though less and less social these days) has little in the way of direct filiation with the original French Revolution.

Re: Lavoisier died at age 50, on the guillotine

#20

Post by defen »

jacquesm wrote: post #13
SeldomSoup wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The French Revolution saw so much bloodshed for so little change (for the ordinary people at least).

I agree it was a lot of bloodshed but eventually the change was huge. France is still by far the most socialist country in Western Europe.

> I agree it was a lot of bloodshed but eventually the change was huge.

Political mass-murder of innocent women and children, mass conscription (slave armies), total war, 5 million dead, entire regions devastated for generations...totally worth it though.

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