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The Rise of the College Crybullies

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Re: The Rise of the College Crybullies

#11

Post by otterley »

gozo wrote: post #9
otterley wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Voicing a different opinion is different than demanding someone be punished because they have a different opinion. Maintaining diversity of opinion is a two-way street that requires tolerance from everyone. Refusing to invite intolerant people is not hypocritical; it ensures the culture of spirited debate is preserved for all comers.

That is the exact same argument that the people you are opposing are making, just that you differ in opinion what is considered intolerant. And saying that you should try to exclude people who don't agree with you seems very much like "demanding someone be punished because they have a different opinion".

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you're not being intentionally obtuse.

How would you design a system that is supposed to foster debate and differing opinions such that people don't shut it down because they cannot tolerate those differing opinions?

Re: The Rise of the College Crybullies

#12

Post by adiabatty »

orionblastar wrote: post #10
rescripting wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a bit divergent but GitHub alone is a bad litmus test to determine if someone as accomplished anything as a software engineer. Many talented engineers are precluded by their contracts from contributing, use other channels to do so, or simply don't work on open source projects. Dismissing someone because of an empty github profile seems like a bit of a hair trigger reaction.

Agreed but the SJWs will always make an issue with a project on a political thing and ask for a code of conduct. It seems to be an annoying pattern of behavior. You have to remember that SJWs have declared a war on hackers and people in STEM. Trying to find something wrong with them to make them lose their jobs or be kicked out of open source projects. http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=6918 ESR has an opinion on it that SJWs…

Nowhere in that post did I see the opinion that good patches be rejected on the grounds that the author is an SJW — ESR appears to say he's quite happy to accept good contributions from anyone. What am I missing?

Re: The Rise of the College Crybullies

#13

Post by mikesickler »

malandrew wrote: post #5
orionblastar wrote: post #3

Just the same social justice warriors who attack tech companies and want more females and minorities in STEM, but they don't take STEM classes they take classes in the liberal arts instead. I encourage females and minorities to take STEM classes for STEM jobs and challenge themselves. Calling racism or sexism esp when almost none exists, there has been no evidence of racism on MU campus for six months. http://www.the…

I like the litmus test that only someone with a github profile with projects of their own and commits to any projects in broad use are privvy to an opinion about tech culture. When I see an SJC opinion on identity politics and tech, my first instinct is to check github to see if the author has ever contributed to open source or has any sizable projects of their own published. I'd guess that 99 times out of 100 they d…

There's a lot more to tech culture than programming.

Re: The Rise of the College Crybullies

#14

Post by gozo »

otterley wrote: post #11
gozo wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is the exact same argument that the people you are opposing are making, just that you differ in opinion what is considered intolerant. And saying that you should try to exclude people who don't agree with you seems very much like "demanding someone be punished because they have a different opinion".

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you're not being intentionally obtuse. How would you design a system that is supposed to foster debate and differing opinions such that people don't shut it down because they cannot tolerate those differing opinions?

You're the one not responding to my arguments, how am I the one being obtuse?

How is excluding people you think are intolerant any better then they excluding you for thinking you are intolerant? How is calling people "crybullies" and implicitly "indoctrinated" instead of reviewing and arguing against their arguments being tolerant? How is it not you that don't tolerate people when you think it's a good idea to try to exclude others from college based on their opinion?

I think everyone has the right to campaign for their cause regardless if that cause is to stop someone else from doing something. I think it's up to the other party to argue their case as best as they can on their own merits instead of trying to shame the other group that are expressing their opinions. People who support free speech should celebrate the outpouring of free speech happening on campuses right now and they should form their own groups arguing for their causes rather than thinking they are morally superior even though they really just disagree since they want the same thing they are accusing their opponents for.

Re: The Rise of the College Crybullies

#15

Post by bjwbell »

mikesickler wrote: post #13
malandrew wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like the litmus test that only someone with a github profile with projects of their own and commits to any projects in broad use are privvy to an opinion about tech culture. When I see an SJC opinion on identity politics and tech, my first instinct is to check github to see if the author has ever contributed to open source or has any sizable projects of their own published. I'd guess that 99 times out of 100 they d…

There's a lot more to tech culture than programming.

Over time I've become fond of the phrase "show me the code" (obviously stolen from the film).

Re: The Rise of the College Crybullies

#16

Post by [deleted] »

mikesickler wrote: post #13
malandrew wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like the litmus test that only someone with a github profile with projects of their own and commits to any projects in broad use are privvy to an opinion about tech culture. When I see an SJC opinion on identity politics and tech, my first instinct is to check github to see if the author has ever contributed to open source or has any sizable projects of their own published. I'd guess that 99 times out of 100 they d…

There's a lot more to tech culture than programming.

[deleted]

Re: The Rise of the College Crybullies

#17

Post by gozo »

rescripting wrote: post #8
malandrew wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like the litmus test that only someone with a github profile with projects of their own and commits to any projects in broad use are privvy to an opinion about tech culture. When I see an SJC opinion on identity politics and tech, my first instinct is to check github to see if the author has ever contributed to open source or has any sizable projects of their own published. I'd guess that 99 times out of 100 they d…

This is a bit divergent but GitHub alone is a bad litmus test to determine if someone as accomplished anything as a software engineer. Many talented engineers are precluded by their contracts from contributing, use other channels to do so, or simply don't work on open source projects. Dismissing someone because of an empty github profile seems like a bit of a hair trigger reaction.

Some of the best programmers I know avoid open source. Partly because of the drama. But mostly because if you spend you days working on "qualified" things (business systems, simulation, robotics etc) in a demanding environment with, at least help from, highly educated people it's just not that fun to patch JavaScript frameworks on GitHub with the "just fork it" crowd.

Re: The Rise of the College Crybullies

#18

Post by DanBC »

orionblastar wrote: post #10
rescripting wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a bit divergent but GitHub alone is a bad litmus test to determine if someone as accomplished anything as a software engineer. Many talented engineers are precluded by their contracts from contributing, use other channels to do so, or simply don't work on open source projects. Dismissing someone because of an empty github profile seems like a bit of a hair trigger reaction.

Agreed but the SJWs will always make an issue with a project on a political thing and ask for a code of conduct. It seems to be an annoying pattern of behavior. You have to remember that SJWs have declared a war on hackers and people in STEM. Trying to find something wrong with them to make them lose their jobs or be kicked out of open source projects. http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=6918 ESR has an opinion on it that SJWs…

Any point you might have loses all credibility when you quote ESR.

For this particular post: if you read the linked django thread it's clearly started by a troll, not an actual "SJW". And ESR's previous posts are mixes of overt racism and sexism with bizarre fantsy stirred through.

Re: The Rise of the College Crybullies

#19

Post by laughinghan »

orionblastar wrote: post #3

Just the same social justice warriors who attack tech companies and want more females and minorities in STEM, but they don't take STEM classes they take classes in the liberal arts instead. I encourage females and minorities to take STEM classes for STEM jobs and challenge themselves. Calling racism or sexism esp when almost none exists, there has been no evidence of racism on MU campus for six months. http://www.the…

> there has been no evidence of racism on MU campus for six months

Your own citation:

> The Student’s Association President Payton Head said he was called the n-word.

> A group of black students said they were called the n-word by some guy in a car.

In what context is someone saying "a thing happened to me" not considered evidence that the thing happened?

Re: The Rise of the College Crybullies

#20

Post by otterley »

gozo wrote: post #14
otterley wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you're not being intentionally obtuse. How would you design a system that is supposed to foster debate and differing opinions such that people don't shut it down because they cannot tolerate those differing opinions?

You're the one not responding to my arguments, how am I the one being obtuse? How is excluding people you think are intolerant any better then they excluding you for thinking you are intolerant? How is calling people "crybullies" and implicitly "indoctrinated" instead of reviewing and arguing against their arguments being tolerant? How is it not you that don't tolerate people when you think it's a good idea to try to…

> How is calling people "crybullies" and implicitly "indoctrinated" instead of reviewing and arguing against their arguments being tolerant?

By "intolerance" I mean "having consequences beyond having people disagree with you," for example, making you lose your job.

> I think everyone has the right to campaign for their cause regardless if that cause is to stop someone else from doing something. I think it's up to the other party to argue their case as best as they can on their own merits instead of trying to shame the other group that are expressing their opinions. People who support free speech should celebrate the outpouring of free speech happening on campuses right now and they should form their own groups arguing for their causes rather than thinking they are morally superior even though they really just disagree since they want the same thing they are accusing their opponents for.

That's not the issue here. If this were all that were happening, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

The issue is that speech is now being suppressed in higher education settings -- a place where (otherwise lawful) offense is expected to be tolerated -- by students who don't respond to offense with the sort of counterargument you're proposing. Instead, they are making demands for resignation or other forms of retribution, and these are starting to bear fruit.

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