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The Supreme Court could soon deliver a blow to the Sixth Amendment

washingtonpost.com

11–20 of 121 posts

Re: The Supreme Court could soon deliver a blow to the Sixth Amendment

#11
post #10
post #4

Is this just an assertion that no money == no counsel, or is there some other attack on the 6th amendment here? I think the notion that 'clean' assets can be frozen pre-trial is unfair, but as long as a public defender is actually available, that would seem to satisfy the amendment.

Yes, the theoretical availability of public defenders satisfies the literal text of the amendment. That being said, effectively banning most private counsel (except those working for free or possibly on contingency) and, in practice, forcing most defendants to rely on a government-employed counsel means locking up the spirit and throwing away the key.

Isn't the spirit of the amendment that everyone should have a good defense? The spirit of the amendment, to me, doesn't really seem to be "you can have as good a defense as you can afford", but more like, "you have the right to a good defense", period. Put differently, if a public defender isn't good enough to satisfy the spirit of the 6th amendment when someone who has money is on trial, then it should also not be good enough for the spirit of the 6th amendment when someone who doesn't have money is on trial.

I could possibly see the spirit of the amendment better served if everyone were defended via the same public-defender system, regardless of income level. That would provide equal access to justice, and also provide middle-class and wealthy people an incentive to make sure it's actually properly funded, since it's the system that would defend them, not only poor people. I'm not sure if that's a better or worse interpretation of the letter of the constitution, though.

Re: The Supreme Court could soon deliver a blow to the Sixth Amendment

#12
Maybe the public defender system may benefit, because when even wealthy or middle-class defendants can't pay for their lawyers, more lawyers are forced to either become public defenders or work on similar arguments, making financial means of defendants less of a factor in choosing their clients.

Re: The Supreme Court could soon deliver a blow to the Sixth Amendment

#13
post #7
post #4

Is this just an assertion that no money == no counsel, or is there some other attack on the 6th amendment here? I think the notion that 'clean' assets can be frozen pre-trial is unfair, but as long as a public defender is actually available, that would seem to satisfy the amendment.

> actually available Define "actually available" Most public defenders offices are so oversubscribed and underfunded that they can't really provide good representation for the majority of their clients.

It doesn't say anywhere that a public defender has to be effective.

Re: The Supreme Court could soon deliver a blow to the Sixth Amendment

#15
post #5

>the court will decide whether the government can freeze all of a defendant’s assets before trial, even those the government itself concedes aren’t tainted by any connection to criminality, thus effectively preventing that defendant from paying for his own defense. The shadow issue of our time is equal access to the legal system. It will be interesting to see how this changes the dynamic of the court system if the Su…

Isn't it oddly adversarial to say that on the one hand, the government can cripple your ability to mount a private defense, but on the other your defense will come from that same prosecuting and asset-freezing government?

Haven't we time and again seen industry more willing to protect its benefactor?

Re: The Supreme Court could soon deliver a blow to the Sixth Amendment

#16
post #5

>the court will decide whether the government can freeze all of a defendant’s assets before trial, even those the government itself concedes aren’t tainted by any connection to criminality, thus effectively preventing that defendant from paying for his own defense. The shadow issue of our time is equal access to the legal system. It will be interesting to see how this changes the dynamic of the court system if the Su…

Isn't it oddly adversarial to say that on the one hand, the government can cripple your ability to mount a private defense, but on the other your defense will come from that same prosecuting and asset-freezing government? Haven't we time and again seen industry more willing to protect its benefactor?

however, the person is considered innocent until proven guilty, therefore those assets shouldn't be seized until such proof.

Re: The Supreme Court could soon deliver a blow to the Sixth Amendment

#17
The Supreme Court only answers the questions posed to them, not the merits of the underlying case, so the article's surprise that they're not addressing anything else is a strange to hear from a lawyer. It's also surprising to hear this as a "blow" to the Sixth Amendment, as the justices seem to believe they've rejected exactly this logic before in Monsanto. [1] One good thing is that the article hlepfully linked to a transcript of the hearing, a good journalistic practice too often ignored. [2] In the quotes below I've elided sections for clarity, as marked, primarily to remove where they repeated words or such while speaking.

The case involves Sixth Amendment [3] claims regarding asset forfeiture where Petitioner allegedly defrauded Medicare. The Deputy Solicitor General supports freezing this money so that it doesn't become unavailable to pay back the amount allegedly defrauded. Petitioner wants to use it to fund their legal defense. They retained the services of Howard Srebnick, Esq. for this oral argument. [4]

The argument in favor of the seizure is roughly this:

JUSTICE ALITO: [Two twin] brothers rob a bank. They get $10,000. They split it up, $5,000 each. And on that very same day, it happens to be their birthday, and their rich uncle comes and gives each of them $5,000 as a birthday present. So they go out to party, and one of them ­­ and they both spend $5,000 partying. One of them spends the money from the bank robbery. The other one spends the money that was given to them by their rich uncle. And your position is that the one who spent the money from the so­called "tainted assets," the money from the bank robbery, is entitled to use the remaining $5,000 to hire an attorney, but the other one is out of luck? MR. SREBNICK: Yes [...] JUSTICE KENNEDY: So [...] you want this Court to say spend the bank robbery money first.

The argument against is roughly this:

MR. SREBNICK: Justice Ginsburg, from a constitutional perspective, I don't think that that's necessarily correct because the courts can give injunctive power to restrain assets, even assets currently belonging to the defendant. Our objection is when such an injunction interferes with the constitutionally protected right to retain counsel of choice. And so while the statute could constitutionally allow, provided that there is adequate hearings, et cetera, the restraint of even a defendant's owned assets, lawfully owned assets, that principle can't extend to assets ­­ the subset of assets she needs to use counsel of choice.

[1] JUSTICE KAGAN: Mr. Srebnick, this goes back, I think, to the Chief Justice's first question. It seems that the distinction that you're making is one that the Court explicitly rejected in Monsanto.

[2] http://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcri...

[3] "In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence."

[4] http://www.royblack.com/attorneys/Howard/Srebnick/

Re: The Supreme Court could soon deliver a blow to the Sixth Amendment

#18
post #7
post #4

Is this just an assertion that no money == no counsel, or is there some other attack on the 6th amendment here? I think the notion that 'clean' assets can be frozen pre-trial is unfair, but as long as a public defender is actually available, that would seem to satisfy the amendment.

> actually available Define "actually available" Most public defenders offices are so oversubscribed and underfunded that they can't really provide good representation for the majority of their clients.

Generally against asset forfeiture, but if they're going to do it, maybe using it only to fund public defenders for all would balance out the incentive for the government to seize the money in the first place.

Re: The Supreme Court could soon deliver a blow to the Sixth Amendment

#19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't it oddly adversarial to say that on the one hand, the government can cripple your ability to mount a private defense, but on the other your defense will come from that same prosecuting and asset-freezing government? Haven't we time and again seen industry more willing to protect its benefactor?

however, the person is considered innocent until proven guilty, therefore those assets shouldn't be seized until such proof.

Tell that to victims of civil forfeiture who are never even charged.

Re: The Supreme Court could soon deliver a blow to the Sixth Amendment

#20
post #7
post #4

Is this just an assertion that no money == no counsel, or is there some other attack on the 6th amendment here? I think the notion that 'clean' assets can be frozen pre-trial is unfair, but as long as a public defender is actually available, that would seem to satisfy the amendment.

> actually available Define "actually available" Most public defenders offices are so oversubscribed and underfunded that they can't really provide good representation for the majority of their clients.

That is why I qualified it w/ 'actually'. I'm aware of what's going on.
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