Avatar: The Holocaust We Will Not See • Hacker News Board

Re: Avatar: The Holocaust We Will Not See

#11

Post by seldo » Wed, Jan 13, 2010, 6:29 PM UTC

eries wrote: post #6

I was expecting the "The Holocaust We Will Not See" to be the one that will obviously take place after the film ends. The native people have driven the imperialists off their planet. But, the imperialists have space weapons and the natives do not. Plus, the imperialists only want inert matter that exists underground. And, they are so evil they have no respect for life in any form. I assume a kinetic bombardment is im…

[Warning: spoiler-heavy]

I have to say the exact same thing occurred to me at the end of the movie. "And so the aliens returned to their dying world." ...yeah, to get more ammo.

Of course, the counter-argument might be that the Na'vi managed to defeat a heavily-armed base using a skeleton force, before most of the tribes had even turned up, so by the time they got back Pandora could be too well-prepared to resist for them to be successful. Kinetic bombardment is all very well, but you need to get down to the surface to pick the stuff up -- unless you completely destroy every living thing on the planet, in which case you develop a very serious logistical problem (they were growing their own food on the surface).

Re: Avatar: The Holocaust We Will Not See

#12

Post by aristus » Wed, Jan 13, 2010, 6:30 PM UTC

mattmaroon wrote: post #4

"But in this case the metaphor is conscious and precise: this is the story of European engagement with the native peoples of the Americas." One planetary race driving another into extinction is a universal, cookie-cutter sci-fi plot device. See Independence Day or Ender's Game. I suppose this was the only one where the victims had some sort of aboriginal-sounding accent, but I wouldn't take it as social commentary.

They also had badass arrows. But on a world where the flying things are all glowing and lizardy, where did they get the feathers for the arrows?

Re: Avatar: The Holocaust We Will Not See

#13

Post by senthil_rajasek » Wed, Jan 13, 2010, 6:34 PM UTC

_h4xr wrote: post #2

I recommend getting over it. You are almost certainly the descendants murderers and conquerors. http://www.exile.ru/articles/detail.php?ARTICLE_ID=7819&... That's just how humans roll. Western Europe had lots of problems, but countries that operate in the European tradition are better places to live. (At least, when you look at the immigration patterns between third-world and first-world countries, it's clear that fi…

"That's just how humans roll."

Thats not how I look at it. We have made progress from a society of primitive tribes to a more reasonable society rapidly in the last couple of centuries.

Universal women's suffrage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Womens_suffrage#United_States) did not even exist in the United States until the beginning of the 20th century.

There is an endless number of social issues that Humans have made advancements, including Civil Rights, Gay Rights etc.,

Our understanding of the world has increased [changed] and so has our ability to make decisions based on such new knowledge.

Re: Avatar: The Holocaust We Will Not See

#14

Post by Quarrelsome » Wed, Jan 13, 2010, 6:41 PM UTC

mattmaroon wrote: post #5

bokonist wrote: post #3

Question to HN readers who are sympathetic with this article: If you could wave a magic wand and "undo" all that was done, would you do so? So imagine all those who perished in the 1500's would be revived from the dead and restored to their ancestral lands, all those living in the Americas now would be sent back to England, Ireland, China, etc, with a one way ticket and $10K in cash to start a new life. Would you wav…

I'm sympathetic to the plight of the native American, though this article is poor, but no, I would not. It's an unfortunate but necessary part of human progress. It's no worse than the Romans, or Gauls, or Saxons, etc. By that logic you'd have to keep waving your wand until we were all back on the Savannah tossing spears at antelopes.

I wouldn't say it was necessary. But it happened and that history wasn't ours. We only get to influence things that are happening now.

Re: Avatar: The Holocaust We Will Not See

#15

Post by jswinghammer » Wed, Jan 13, 2010, 6:44 PM UTC

senthil_rajasek wrote: post #13

_h4xr wrote: post #2

I recommend getting over it. You are almost certainly the descendants murderers and conquerors. http://www.exile.ru/articles/detail.php?ARTICLE_ID=7819&... That's just how humans roll. Western Europe had lots of problems, but countries that operate in the European tradition are better places to live. (At least, when you look at the immigration patterns between third-world and first-world countries, it's clear that fi…

"That's just how humans roll." Thats not how I look at it. We have made progress from a society of primitive tribes to a more reasonable society rapidly in the last couple of centuries. Universal women's suffrage ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Womens_suffrage#United_States ) did not even exist in the United States until the beginning of the 20th century. There is an endless number of social issues that Humans have ma…

Your bias is defining all those things you listed as progress. For some those items are signs of a degenerate society that has lost its way.

Your thinking is more like this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_of_history#Social_ev...

Than this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_cycle_theory

Re: Avatar: The Holocaust We Will Not See

#16

Post by DaniFong » Wed, Jan 13, 2010, 6:48 PM UTC

bokonist wrote: post #3

Question to HN readers who are sympathetic with this article: If you could wave a magic wand and "undo" all that was done, would you do so? So imagine all those who perished in the 1500's would be revived from the dead and restored to their ancestral lands, all those living in the Americas now would be sent back to England, Ireland, China, etc, with a one way ticket and $10K in cash to start a new life. Would you wav…

I have to believe that somewhere in the parameter space of human diplomacy and relationships there is the possibility for expansion and coexistence without utter annihilation of one side. We appear to be doing it on some scales in the modern age, certainly much better than we've done before, though not perfectly.

Still, homo sapiens largely wiped out neanderthal populations many eons ago. They had a similar to larger cranial capacity to cro-magnons and modern humans, they used and created tools, and there's some evidence of cultural artifacts such as jewelry around their sites. The signs point to a culture of intelligent humanoids, now almost completely wiped out (except with possible genetic relics in the human population). This genocide preceded civilization as we know it by millennia...

Placental mammals, crossing over to south america from the isthmus of Panama when it arose, almost completely destroyed marsupials in south america. That's not just an ethnicity, race, or species, it's an entire infraclass. It is likely the case that our primate ancestors did the same for many other classes of beings.

So to turn the clock back, it is hard to know when to stop. Fundamentally it is difficult for me to reason about when it is good for one creature to profit while others perish. I do know, though, that they are in a much more complicated relationship -- that it is impossible to separate one creature from its ecosystem, and that if no particular creature or plant or species is to be sacred above others, then surely it's the integrity and continued vitality of the ecosystem that matters. This is one reason I am an environmentalist: human beings now have immense power over the environment, and as such need to take responsibility for the fact that they can alter it, destroy it, or care for it. We have to become not the Earth's ignorant children, but the it's gardeners.

Re: Avatar: The Holocaust We Will Not See

#17

Post by benmathes » Wed, Jan 13, 2010, 6:50 PM UTC

senthil_rajasek wrote: post #13

_h4xr wrote: post #2

I recommend getting over it. You are almost certainly the descendants murderers and conquerors. http://www.exile.ru/articles/detail.php?ARTICLE_ID=7819&... That's just how humans roll. Western Europe had lots of problems, but countries that operate in the European tradition are better places to live. (At least, when you look at the immigration patterns between third-world and first-world countries, it's clear that fi…

"That's just how humans roll." Thats not how I look at it. We have made progress from a society of primitive tribes to a more reasonable society rapidly in the last couple of centuries. Universal women's suffrage ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Womens_suffrage#United_States ) did not even exist in the United States until the beginning of the 20th century. There is an endless number of social issues that Humans have ma…

You're definitely correct that we are progressing as societies. We observe new rights and freedoms along with rates of death and murder lower than ever in history.

However, it's almost guaranteed that you do descend from conquerors, warlords, or murders. This probability says nothing about what you should do or whether you should learn from the past. It only states that in the past few thousand years shit has been pretty bad, and humans adapted to it.

Re: Avatar: The Holocaust We Will Not See

#18

Post by Quarrelsome » Wed, Jan 13, 2010, 6:51 PM UTC

bokonist wrote: post #3

Question to HN readers who are sympathetic with this article: If you could wave a magic wand and "undo" all that was done, would you do so? So imagine all those who perished in the 1500's would be revived from the dead and restored to their ancestral lands, all those living in the Americas now would be sent back to England, Ireland, China, etc, with a one way ticket and $10K in cash to start a new life. Would you wav…

No. What's done is done and the perpetrators of this genocide are dead.

However we should acknowledge the history, the lies our ancestors placated themselves with and the parallels in the lies we tell ourselves today. An example would be the premise that we are "more" civilised than other people or are in some way better.

As a westerner and an Englishman considering my history I also find it very difficult to get onto a high-horse about much. As an example in the UK there are many that complain about levels of immigration but if you look into the history of the British Empire it is very apt to have a lot of immigration here.

What's even more interesting is that we are still standing on the backs of the third-world. Sure, we've dimmed it down a little bit and abstracted it beautifully but spare a thought for the chap who made your IPhone or VCR and the number of hours they worked. Acknowledge that our life-styles cause a degree of suffering elsewhere in the world.

Re: Avatar: The Holocaust We Will Not See

#19

Post by AndrewO » Wed, Jan 13, 2010, 6:52 PM UTC

eries wrote: post #6

I was expecting the "The Holocaust We Will Not See" to be the one that will obviously take place after the film ends. The native people have driven the imperialists off their planet. But, the imperialists have space weapons and the natives do not. Plus, the imperialists only want inert matter that exists underground. And, they are so evil they have no respect for life in any form. I assume a kinetic bombardment is im…

I'm sure all of this will make it's way into the sequel(s)...

Re: Avatar: The Holocaust We Will Not See

#20

Post by wendroid » Wed, Jan 13, 2010, 6:55 PM UTC

_h4xr wrote: post #2

I recommend getting over it. You are almost certainly the descendants murderers and conquerors. http://www.exile.ru/articles/detail.php?ARTICLE_ID=7819&... That's just how humans roll. Western Europe had lots of problems, but countries that operate in the European tradition are better places to live. (At least, when you look at the immigration patterns between third-world and first-world countries, it's clear that fi…

The third-world isn't some laggard full of overbreeding simpletons. It was created in the 18th & 19th century by well armed invaders helped at the end of the 19th C by drought & flood that killed 50m people in India & China and 50m in S. America.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_Victorian_Holocausts

Indian & Chinese civilisation was crushed by armies & opium.