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Toyota Unintended Acceleration and the Big Bowl of “Spaghetti” Code (2013)

safetyresearch.net

11–20 of 108 posts

Re: Toyota Unintended Acceleration and the Big Bowl of “Spaghetti” Code (2013)

#11

I'm a retired electronics design engineer and embedded programmer, and I will NEVER own a car with any kind of vehicle/engine management computer. Old cars for me, forever. I flatly refuse anything but fully manual and direct mechanical gears, clutch, steering, brakes and throttle. Curiously the chief engineer I knew at a major car service center, also felt the same way. And that's not even touching on the insanity o…

[deleted]

Re: Toyota Unintended Acceleration and the Big Bowl of “Spaghetti” Code (2013)

#12

These unintended acceleration incidents seem to happen mostly to elderly drivers. http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2010/03/how-real...

Is there any reason why this pattern hasn't been widely reported?

Edit: I mean, -if it was this obvious we should have known it by now?

Re: Toyota Unintended Acceleration and the Big Bowl of “Spaghetti” Code (2013)

#13
post #4
post #2

Critical systems should be open source by law.

Not sure it would help any, it's not exactly hard to find very low quality code on Github. It IMHO shows a failure of the type approval process, maybe it didn't evolve enough with regard to the amount of software used in safety critical components. Inspiration from aircraft certification would likely be mùore than welcome in that regard...

The point is that a world of coders who would be mulling over the code due to interest and spare time would likely find critical issues and shine light onto them, making it a PR issue for those companies. If those companies ever get around to offering bounties for issues relating to safety or security, even easier to get an army of eyes on the code.

Re: Toyota Unintended Acceleration and the Big Bowl of “Spaghetti” Code (2013)

#14

I'm a retired electronics design engineer and embedded programmer, and I will NEVER own a car with any kind of vehicle/engine management computer. Old cars for me, forever. I flatly refuse anything but fully manual and direct mechanical gears, clutch, steering, brakes and throttle. Curiously the chief engineer I knew at a major car service center, also felt the same way. And that's not even touching on the insanity o…

I see your point, although I'd find it too limiting to impose that on myself. Speaking of GSM data links, I seem to be the only person worried about the "eCall" mandate: all cars in the EU will be required to phone home with their location in the event of a crash. That requires a GPS+GSM device in the car.

Re: Toyota Unintended Acceleration and the Big Bowl of “Spaghetti” Code (2013)

#15

These unintended acceleration incidents seem to happen mostly to elderly drivers. http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2010/03/how-real...

Is there any reason why this pattern hasn't been widely reported? Edit: I mean, -if it was this obvious we should have known it by now?

That source was Megan McArdle, who is a libertarian partisan. It's trying to discredit the complainants. The actual court case had an expert who looked at the code and found bugs where the possibility of unintended acceleration could come about. I'm not saying it's not true about the ages of the complainants, but it's certainly trying to present a particular interpretation of unknown events.

Re: Toyota Unintended Acceleration and the Big Bowl of “Spaghetti” Code (2013)

#16

These unintended acceleration incidents seem to happen mostly to elderly drivers. http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2010/03/how-real...

I saw that when it first came out, but I have come to think that under the noise of age-related accidents, there are a few incidents that cannot be explained away, possibly including the one that this article leads with. It is also possible that younger drivers generally reacted faster to problems and were able to avoid serious accidents (IIRC, some of the less ambiguous crashes did occur to younger drivers.)

Ultimately, Toyota was heavily penalized for fielding safety-critical software that it could not show was acceptably safe, which is a reasonable and desirable outcome, IMHO.

Re: Toyota Unintended Acceleration and the Big Bowl of “Spaghetti” Code (2013)

#17

I'm a retired electronics design engineer and embedded programmer, and I will NEVER own a car with any kind of vehicle/engine management computer. Old cars for me, forever. I flatly refuse anything but fully manual and direct mechanical gears, clutch, steering, brakes and throttle. Curiously the chief engineer I knew at a major car service center, also felt the same way. And that's not even touching on the insanity o…

That stance will soon become unreasonable. Incidentally, I'm also an engineer and work on embedded systems... for cars. Can embedded systems be unsafe? Sure. Can they be made reasonably safe, safer than full mechanical cars? They can.

It'll come at a point when those cars will be unmaintainable, hard to aquire, expensive. I want to see if you'll still have the sae stance then. What if in 30 years it becomes illegal to drive your own car and can only use SDC's, will you still pine over the good old mechanica components then?

Re: Toyota Unintended Acceleration and the Big Bowl of “Spaghetti” Code (2013)

#18
post #13
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure it would help any, it's not exactly hard to find very low quality code on Github. It IMHO shows a failure of the type approval process, maybe it didn't evolve enough with regard to the amount of software used in safety critical components. Inspiration from aircraft certification would likely be mùore than welcome in that regard...

The point is that a world of coders who would be mulling over the code due to interest and spare time would likely find critical issues and shine light onto them, making it a PR issue for those companies. If those companies ever get around to offering bounties for issues relating to safety or security, even easier to get an army of eyes on the code.

That's the point. We already know it doesn't work. Most recent examples would be Heartbleed, ShellShock, etc.

Re: Toyota Unintended Acceleration and the Big Bowl of “Spaghetti” Code (2013)

#19

These unintended acceleration incidents seem to happen mostly to elderly drivers. http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2010/03/how-real...

Is there any reason why this pattern hasn't been widely reported? Edit: I mean, -if it was this obvious we should have known it by now?

Is there any reason why this pattern hasn't been widely reported?

My recollection is: It was widely reported at the time.

Re: Toyota Unintended Acceleration and the Big Bowl of “Spaghetti” Code (2013)

#20
post #13
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure it would help any, it's not exactly hard to find very low quality code on Github. It IMHO shows a failure of the type approval process, maybe it didn't evolve enough with regard to the amount of software used in safety critical components. Inspiration from aircraft certification would likely be mùore than welcome in that regard...

The point is that a world of coders who would be mulling over the code due to interest and spare time would likely find critical issues and shine light onto them, making it a PR issue for those companies. If those companies ever get around to offering bounties for issues relating to safety or security, even easier to get an army of eyes on the code.

"spare time", do you know where I can find some of that?
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