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Forgotten Language: Jorf could have been Python or Ruby (2005)

ralsina.me

11–20 of 74 posts

Re: Forgotten Language: Jorf could have been Python or Ruby (2005)

#11
post #5

borf? barf? can't think of many words ending in rf. bark? Barf Corf Curf Kerf Serf Surf Turf Zarf

Serf would be a nice marketing word today I think, you could make a little picture that depicts the language as being in serfdom to the user. ;) Maybe I've had too much coffee, or not enough, I forget how that works. Whatever the case, I haven't drunk the exact right amount.

Re: Forgotten Language: Jorf could have been Python or Ruby (2005)

#12
"If he start­ed Jorf in 1987, that means he start­ed it around the same time Perl 1.0, (and the syn­tax is much nicer ;-). He start­ed it around the same time Gui­do start­ed Python."

This is quite interesting as it's not really clear a better syntax would automatically make it "win" over other languages, or even that it's a significant factor. Maybe a prerequisite in most cases, but I think here are a lot of other factors that can be more important:

* Surrounding library and tooling and documentation

* System requirements to comfortably run it

* Initial community

* Ability of the author to promote it

* The nature of the early adopter individuals and companies (thought experiment: young Mark Zuckerberg sits down one night and proceeds to write thefacebook v0.0.0.0.1 in Perl, not PHP)

"So, he became a suit ;-)"

I saw the emoticon ... but CTO of a startup != suit in many cases

Re: Forgotten Language: Jorf could have been Python or Ruby (2005)

#14
post #9
post #2

Did something change recently with the HN ranking algorithm?

No. Why do you ask?

Things on the front page has way less votes and seems fresher (more quickly replaced) than before.

There are multiple stories on the front page right now with less than 10 votes and only one story older than 9 hours.

Re: Forgotten Language: Jorf could have been Python or Ruby (2005)

#15
post #5

borf? barf? can't think of many words ending in rf. bark? Barf Corf Curf Kerf Serf Surf Turf Zarf

Serf would be a nice marketing word today I think, you could make a little picture that depicts the language as being in serfdom to the user. ;) Maybe I've had too much coffee, or not enough, I forget how that works. Whatever the case, I haven't drunk the exact right amount.

https://www.serfdom.io/

Re: Forgotten Language: Jorf could have been Python or Ruby (2005)

#16
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. Why do you ask?

Things on the front page has way less votes and seems fresher (more quickly replaced) than before. There are multiple stories on the front page right now with less than 10 votes and only one story older than 9 hours.

The voting behavior of the users varies with time of day and day of the week.

Re: Forgotten Language: Jorf could have been Python or Ruby (2005)

#17
Wow! Awesome story! And unfortunately yet another human-oriented tool which got dumped by the IT crowd in favor of obscurantist arcane machine-oriented engineerism-ridden hacks that break most of the possible principles of design and HCI and that are fantastically performant (i.e. have mind-boggling throughput) but often quite slow (i.e. take 300ms to react to key press and start for long seconds).

Re: Forgotten Language: Jorf could have been Python or Ruby (2005)

#18

"If he start­ed Jorf in 1987, that means he start­ed it around the same time Perl 1.0, (and the syn­tax is much nicer ;-). He start­ed it around the same time Gui­do start­ed Python." This is quite interesting as it's not really clear a better syntax would automatically make it "win" over other languages, or even that it's a significant factor. Maybe a prerequisite in most cases, but I think here are a lot of other f…

Yes, but how do you get that library, tooling, documentation, initial community? Here, Google, Sun, Microsoft, Apple, Facebook(?), Mozilla have huge advantages, but for the individual, let's hope there's something more intrinsic than promotion ability!

Syntax plays some role at that early stage, of attracting that initial community.

Re: Forgotten Language: Jorf could have been Python or Ruby (2005)

#19
Intrigued, I did some googling and found this God-forgotten FTP :) ftp://ftp.chatnfiles.com/Simtel-CDroms/Simtel-for-Ms-Dos-march-97-2-of-2/disc2/misclang/00_index.htm - jorf21_3.zip contains a manual :)

Some interesting constructs / keywords, eg.

    For (Col = 0 thru 4) | Display B Music 5 times
And some insights:

          The Windows culture is the culture of the WinProc; programs
          dominated by massive unstructured switch statements that handle
          esoteric message flags. As different products convert to Windows,
          they unquestioningly adopt the WinProc culture.  BASIC, the
          language for the beginner, becomes Visual Basic, a language for
          precious few.  C programs become full of global values.  

          MS-Windows is so complicated that not even full time programmers
          can learn every command and every subsystem.  This leaves no time
          for Windows programmers to learn about their customers.  They are
          doomed to write programs that cannot meet the particular needs of
          these customer.  The legacy of Windows threatens to be like the
          legacy of UNIX; expensive techies, weak programs.
And design approaches:

                                  Memory Management

          Why is it my fault when my computer runs out of memory?  It is
          not my memory, why is it my fault?   Why do I have to "Open" a
          file just to read data from it?  What exactly is "Opening"?  Why
          can't I have two records available at the same time? 

          The JORF language handles its own memory, and your reward is
          freedom to allocate large structures, arrays and text.  The JORF
          memory can flush variables, methods, windows, internal values,
          and even the program stack to disk whenever memory gets scarce. 
          Data is read from file when you reference it, so there is no need
          to "Read" it, and no difference between a "memory variable" and a
          field in a record.

Re: Forgotten Language: Jorf could have been Python or Ruby (2005)

#20
post #5

borf? barf? can't think of many words ending in rf. bark? Barf Corf Curf Kerf Serf Surf Turf Zarf

/usr/share/dict/words says:

    bedwarf
    bescarf
    bescurf
    corf
    dwarf
    enserf
    hippocerf
    hircocerf
    Hurf
    kerf
    orf
    overscurf
    returf
    scarf
    scharf
    scurf
    semiserf
    serf
    shurf
    surf
    swarf
    tharf
    turf
    underturf
    unturf
    urf
    warf
    werf
    wharf
    wheelswarf
    zarf
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