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Dell, EMC, HP, Cisco are the walking dead

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11–20 of 73 posts

Re: Dell, EMC, HP, Cisco are the walking dead

#11
They're the walking dead because they pursued scale over innovation. Once they had achieved scale, they found themselves with too much momentum to innovate. So because they couldn't innovate, they built an army of consultants to hawk their wares to customers who also valued scale. But that consulting business never really took off because its existence was predicated on a model of dumping obsolete (but "enterprisey"!) hardware/software onto customers already suffering from vendor lock-in. When those customers start to struggle (as they inevitably will, because the tech industry is far from the only one where scale can impede your ability to innovate) the market has moved on to a different place, and the company never kept up. Then you see a death spiral of layoffs and divestitures that destroys 50-90% of shareholder value.

Sound familiar? This fate awaits all these companies:

- Dell: I don't even know what Dell makes anymore. I guess they sell PCs, servers and consulting services to small businesses that don't know any better. But this market is being eroded by an army of local MSPs and resellers, and it's not a model that benefits from scale.

- HP: HP has been a disaster for a while, but they will probably endure since their hardware is generally pretty good and reasonably priced. But servers and printers are not a very high-margin business, and that's caused their leadership to be constantly on the hunt for a newer, higher-margin revenue stream.

- EMC: Storage is increasingly distributed, and EMC's centralized storage solutions really are a dinosaur in today's market. They just make the wrong product and never found anything to replace it.

- Cisco: By all rights, Cisco shouldn't be on this list given that the Internet still largely runs on their hardware. But they convinced themselves they were a consulting company, and that ran off all their good engineers. Cisco today is a shadow of its former self.

Re: Dell, EMC, HP, Cisco are the walking dead

#12

I read somewhere that the cloud is just someone's else computer. At least in the business I am working with that would never be allowed so if there is a cloud to be had it will be on premises, which may keep these so-called walking dead lumbering for quite some time.

This article simplifies that problem is that these companies are "fucked by cloud". As you pointed out many companies will never migrate to cloud - never. But they will not buy expensive storage from EMC or expensive network equipment from Cisco.

It is not only about cloud. It is that these companies did not evolve to match current needs: it is about sales process (just try to buy cloud from Oracle and you will see), it is about support, it is about pricing, it is about technology (SOAP?) ...

Re: Dell, EMC, HP, Cisco are the walking dead

#13

This is such a perception skewed by Silicon-Valley-Syndrome. This is how the rest of the world works -- I run an import/export business and have to manage logistics. It doesn't matter what industry, it could be crude oil or widgets from China at half a penny a piece. It's my job as CIO to choose an implementation. I'm going to choose SAP or Dynamics (or one of the handful of other ERP's with name recognition) on DB2…

So two things:

1. Cloud providers are making it easy for legacy businesses to take baby steps. You don't have to use a NoSQL solution with AWS Dynamo, you can use Postgres with RDS. Or if you're hyper-conservative/stuck with legacy stuff, you can run Oracle with RDS. Or get an EC2 instance and install your own personal copy of Oracle on it. You don't have to jump to full modernity right away, you can take the easy wins of hosted infrastructure first, and only later move up to the bigger wins of hosted platforms.

2. Yes, legacy stuff takes forever to disappear. There are still businesses running VMS inside of VAX emulators with COBOL apps on them. But once you're in that "super-conservative businesses won't move away from you anytime soon" area, you're in a declining market. New businesses unencumbered by legacy won't go down that road -- small businesses starting today will never buy an on-site server to start with (thanks to Office 365/Google Apps/etc.), and as they grow there's no reason for them to change that policy anymore. EMC might never get a new customer, and even if they keep their old ones for some time, it's just a question of how fast their decline is.

Re: Dell, EMC, HP, Cisco are the walking dead

#15

This is such a perception skewed by Silicon-Valley-Syndrome. This is how the rest of the world works -- I run an import/export business and have to manage logistics. It doesn't matter what industry, it could be crude oil or widgets from China at half a penny a piece. It's my job as CIO to choose an implementation. I'm going to choose SAP or Dynamics (or one of the handful of other ERP's with name recognition) on DB2…

And then there is Elon Musk who told his CIO to build their own manufacturing planning system because he refused to give that much money to SAP or Oracle.

Ps. Having migrated an SAP off of AIX, I'd say you'd be better served with something like a VBlock or even VirtuStream or Amazon cloud to run it. There also are price and performance incentives to run R/4 on HANA than on Oracle.

Re: Dell, EMC, HP, Cisco are the walking dead

#16
post #11

They're the walking dead because they pursued scale over innovation. Once they had achieved scale, they found themselves with too much momentum to innovate. So because they couldn't innovate, they built an army of consultants to hawk their wares to customers who also valued scale. But that consulting business never really took off because its existence was predicated on a model of dumping obsolete (but "enterprisey"!…

What would be your opinion on Oracle?

I find it strange that the Author didn't include Oracle in the title although he talks about it at some length in the article body.

Re: Dell, EMC, HP, Cisco are the walking dead

#17
post #6

The magic cloud. Good thing it is made of fairy dust rather than commodity servers and network equipment or Dell and Cisco might be around forever providing those things.

Facebook and Google and Amazon do not use Cisco networking equipment, nor do they use Dell servers:

http://www.wired.com/2014/11/facebooks-new-data-center-bad-n...

That's basically the point of the article: These companies that actually had to get up to that kind of massive scale quickly discovered that the way hawked by these big expensive "enterprise" companies didn't work. It was expensive and insufficient. So they've developed their own custom stuff (often built on open source; sometimes open sourced back out) that works a lot better while also being massively cheaper.

AWS isn't just a bunch of Dell servers hooked up to EMC SANs and Cisco switches. The only people who still use that stuff are people who a) have a ton of money and a desire to spend it freely, plus b) don't have really serious demands, which would mandate something better.

That's not a good place to be.

Re: Dell, EMC, HP, Cisco are the walking dead

#18
post #11

They're the walking dead because they pursued scale over innovation. Once they had achieved scale, they found themselves with too much momentum to innovate. So because they couldn't innovate, they built an army of consultants to hawk their wares to customers who also valued scale. But that consulting business never really took off because its existence was predicated on a model of dumping obsolete (but "enterprisey"!…

All of your examples seem to lack a lot of context. Yes, these companies are all under pressure. But most of them are still in slow growth and working hard at it. There is also quite a bit of innovation in these places. The problem is the market model is changing - that innovation (cloud) undermines everything else.

Their biggest liability is their customer base that IS NOT changing and continues to pay for these products. I see guys everywhere trying to cajole customers down the cloud path because they'd rather be at the seat of that inevitable transition than pushed out. Many customers don't want to. So they're stuck doing the old thing that's dying and the new thing is being done by smaller customers that wouldn't even consider them.

The story of if/how they fail or rise again will be a lot more complicated than you are suggesting. Keep in mind Apple was near bankruptcy 18 years ago.

Example - EMC. I'm not sure what you're talking about, there are a lot of products. Isilon is distributed storage and selling like mad. ScaleIO is free for anyone to use unsupported and a distributed Elastic Block Store. VxRack is scale out compute and storage. XtremIO sells more and is growing at pace with Pure (which just went public). Dell in swallowing them up which seems like the least worst option given Elliott is at their back and HP would be a death sentence. (I don't work at EMC, but a subsidiary and have some knowledge of how they work and sell.)

Re: Dell, EMC, HP, Cisco are the walking dead

#19

This is such a perception skewed by Silicon-Valley-Syndrome. This is how the rest of the world works -- I run an import/export business and have to manage logistics. It doesn't matter what industry, it could be crude oil or widgets from China at half a penny a piece. It's my job as CIO to choose an implementation. I'm going to choose SAP or Dynamics (or one of the handful of other ERP's with name recognition) on DB2…

True of nearly every company I've worked at or for.

The old joke was "no one ever got fired for buying IBM".

It's not even about what the best technology is for a solution but rather the intersection of what's the best I can buy that isn't gonna get me fired if it goes wrong.

Re: Dell, EMC, HP, Cisco are the walking dead

#20

It could take a while yet before all companies big and small start using the cloud to its full potential though ... in my experience people in management are usually against it, citing data security issues.

You'd be surprised. I've contracted for the some 3 letter federal agencies and they're alright with certain material being hosted in the cloud. (1) We didn't use AWS but they were fine with standard RSA keys. MS/IBM realizes the discomfort management has though, and addresses it with "partial virtualization" solutions. 1: https://aws.amazon.com/federal/

Part of it is being outside the US as well- there is a reluctance to keep sensitive data on servers owned by a foreign company. Attitudes are changing though ... MS and Amazon for example have a really good presence in Australia these days.
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