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Boeing publishes photos of 1960s stealth plane experiment

arstechnica.com

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Re: Boeing publishes photos of 1960s stealth plane experiment

#11

Post by ZanyProgrammer »

smackfu wrote: post #6
sopooneo wrote: post #4

One question, in case anyone here knows: if the "1948 'Key West Agreement' (PDF) that put jet fixed-wing aircraft purely in the domain of the Air Force" is a thing, then how come the Navy runs the Blue Angels? https://www.blueangels.navy.mil/

It's mainly a poor summary of those agreements, of which the Key West Agreement was only the first. A better way to put it would be that the Army is not allowed to have fixed-wing aircraft, and the Air Force is not allowed to have helicopters. The Navy is just restricted to air operations that support a naval campaign.

The Air Force also has helicopters.

Re: Boeing publishes photos of 1960s stealth plane experiment

#12

Post by sanoli »

trhway wrote: post #10
themodelplumber wrote: post #7

Wow, if the design that resulted in those now-well-known aesthetic qualities goes back that far, I wonder what they're thinking is new and cool these days.

one would wish it. Unfortunately, this contraption was Boeing's F-35 competition entry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_X-32

I actually liked the way the x-32 looked. If Disney made a movie like 'Cars' but called 'Jet Fighters', I always thought the X-32 would be a candidate for the protagonist.

Re: Boeing publishes photos of 1960s stealth plane experiment

#13

Post by hugh4 »

ZanyProgrammer wrote: post #11
smackfu wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's mainly a poor summary of those agreements, of which the Key West Agreement was only the first. A better way to put it would be that the Army is not allowed to have fixed-wing aircraft, and the Air Force is not allowed to have helicopters. The Navy is just restricted to air operations that support a naval campaign.

The Air Force also has helicopters.

You seem to be correct -- Wikipedia says the USAF has about 200 helicopters for search and rescue and "utility".

Presumably an exception to the rule.

Re: Boeing publishes photos of 1960s stealth plane experiment

#14

Post by trhway »

sanoli wrote: post #12
trhway wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

one would wish it. Unfortunately, this contraption was Boeing's F-35 competition entry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_X-32

I actually liked the way the x-32 looked. If Disney made a movie like 'Cars' but called 'Jet Fighters', I always thought the X-32 would be a candidate for the protagonist.

i see your point and raise you that :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmLh1sSFs8Y

Re: Boeing publishes photos of 1960s stealth plane experiment

#15

Post by ianstallings »

edwhitesell wrote: post #9

Pretty cool for the 60s. Even more impressive if they released RCS numbers to compare to the SR-71 and F-117 My first thought is it looks like a cross between the X-47B [0] and the RQ-4 Global Hawk [1]. Interestingly, both of those came out of Northrop Grumman years later. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_Grumman_X-47B [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_Grumman_RQ-4_Global_H...

Yes and what is strange is it isn't faceted like the F-117, which Lockheed was making during the same era. As far as I can recall Ben Rich said that he had stumbled on a paper by a Russian scientist regarding how to defeat radar using various angles. But their limited computation capability led Lockheed to create a faceted design instead of a round one. One has to wonder why Boeing didn't do that. Was it just guess work? Or was it some information-sharing between the two groups and Boeing simply took a different, yet better approach?

Northrop's Tacit Blue might have been the influencer for both programs: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_Tacit_Blue

Re: Boeing publishes photos of 1960s stealth plane experiment

#16

Post by vonmoltke »

ianstallings wrote: post #15
edwhitesell wrote: post #9

Pretty cool for the 60s. Even more impressive if they released RCS numbers to compare to the SR-71 and F-117 My first thought is it looks like a cross between the X-47B [0] and the RQ-4 Global Hawk [1]. Interestingly, both of those came out of Northrop Grumman years later. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_Grumman_X-47B [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_Grumman_RQ-4_Global_H...

Yes and what is strange is it isn't faceted like the F-117, which Lockheed was making during the same era. As far as I can recall Ben Rich said that he had stumbled on a paper by a Russian scientist regarding how to defeat radar using various angles. But their limited computation capability led Lockheed to create a faceted design instead of a round one. One has to wonder why Boeing didn't do that. Was it just guess w…

As mentioned in the article, Boeing did this work two years before Ufimtsev even published his paper. It was also a full ten years before Lockheed even started designing the F-117.

Re: Boeing publishes photos of 1960s stealth plane experiment

#18

Post by [deleted] »

vonmoltke wrote: post #16
ianstallings wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes and what is strange is it isn't faceted like the F-117, which Lockheed was making during the same era. As far as I can recall Ben Rich said that he had stumbled on a paper by a Russian scientist regarding how to defeat radar using various angles. But their limited computation capability led Lockheed to create a faceted design instead of a round one. One has to wonder why Boeing didn't do that. Was it just guess w…

As mentioned in the article, Boeing did this work two years before Ufimtsev even published his paper. It was also a full ten years before Lockheed even started designing the F-117.

[deleted]

Re: Boeing publishes photos of 1960s stealth plane experiment

#19

Post by ianstallings »

vonmoltke wrote: post #16
ianstallings wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes and what is strange is it isn't faceted like the F-117, which Lockheed was making during the same era. As far as I can recall Ben Rich said that he had stumbled on a paper by a Russian scientist regarding how to defeat radar using various angles. But their limited computation capability led Lockheed to create a faceted design instead of a round one. One has to wonder why Boeing didn't do that. Was it just guess w…

As mentioned in the article, Boeing did this work two years before Ufimtsev even published his paper. It was also a full ten years before Lockheed even started designing the F-117.

Sorry I missed the article, I thought it was just an image gallery and had to scroll down through a strange(imho) layout. Thanks!

Re: Boeing publishes photos of 1960s stealth plane experiment

#20

Post by edwhitesell »

ianstallings wrote: post #15
edwhitesell wrote: post #9

Pretty cool for the 60s. Even more impressive if they released RCS numbers to compare to the SR-71 and F-117 My first thought is it looks like a cross between the X-47B [0] and the RQ-4 Global Hawk [1]. Interestingly, both of those came out of Northrop Grumman years later. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_Grumman_X-47B [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_Grumman_RQ-4_Global_H...

Yes and what is strange is it isn't faceted like the F-117, which Lockheed was making during the same era. As far as I can recall Ben Rich said that he had stumbled on a paper by a Russian scientist regarding how to defeat radar using various angles. But their limited computation capability led Lockheed to create a faceted design instead of a round one. One has to wonder why Boeing didn't do that. Was it just guess w…

Well, the Hopeless Diamond (F-117 model) was 15 years _after_ this plane. This plane clearly had some of the early thoughts on lowering RCS though, similar to the SR-71 Blackbird.

There were no facets on this plane because that really only came about after Ufimtsev's paper described how to calculate RCS. Computers at the time of the Hopeless Diamond/Have Blue/F-117 couldn't run those calculations on curved surfaces. Which meant Ben Rich's team used the flat surfaces (I don't recall exactly who suggested it, but it's in the book).

I'd also be curious if Boeing had any thoughts in the areas of radar absorbtion/dispersing paint in the 60s. I recall the SR-71 Blackbird had some of those properties in it's paint (though the paint was mainly used for cooling).

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