Live data from Hacker News

Cost of Health Care By Country, as Compared to Life Expectancy

good.is

11–20 of 107 posts

Re: Cost of Health Care By Country, as Compared to Life Expectancy

#11
post #2

A response to the graphic suggests that while "this was evidence of an insane and inefficient healthcare system", "if [they] really wanted a chart that captures what’s wrong with America’s healthcare system, [they] should have gone to the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services’ national health expenditures data website and downloaded the figures showing how rampant third-party payment has resulted in consumers di…

As a Canadian, the one thing I don't quite understand is how many of my countrymen are so quick to condemn the American system despite all the obvious signs that the Canadian system is unsustainable and failing

Canadians' responses to the US are not a rational phenomenon. They're rooted in our identity issues and aren't amenable to argument. This is a (the?) fundamental fact of (English) Canadian history right from the beginning.

It doesn't follow that all our responses are wrong; as far as I can tell they tend to fall along a spectrum. But it's a real weakness that we can't be more objective. It leads us to accept and defend substandard things about ourselves that we could otherwise set about improving... your example being exhibit #1.

Re: Cost of Health Care By Country, as Compared to Life Expectancy

#12
post #2

A response to the graphic suggests that while "this was evidence of an insane and inefficient healthcare system", "if [they] really wanted a chart that captures what’s wrong with America’s healthcare system, [they] should have gone to the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services’ national health expenditures data website and downloaded the figures showing how rampant third-party payment has resulted in consumers di…

Also after a visit to a psychiatrist I found out they charge your insurance more, if you have it, than they would if you didn't. I'm not exactly sure what that was about, but if it was for sympathy, then it just shows that having a bureaucratic insurance company, private or government owned, would still have this problem of distancing the money from the patient. However I'm still a large proponent of not only life as…

It's nothing to do with sympathy. Many businesses try to charge different prices to different consumers based on ability to pay. If you charge a single fixed price, you'll miss out on some sales (to people who'd buy your product at a lower price) and on some profits (from people who'd pay more than you're charging). It's the same phenomenon behind coupons, sales, 'premium' and 'budget' versions, etc. etc. From a provider's point of view, the fact that someone does or doesn't have insurance is an important signal about what s/he'll pay for medical services, and they're rational to take advantage of it.

Re: Cost of Health Care By Country, as Compared to Life Expectancy

#13
post #2

A response to the graphic suggests that while "this was evidence of an insane and inefficient healthcare system", "if [they] really wanted a chart that captures what’s wrong with America’s healthcare system, [they] should have gone to the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services’ national health expenditures data website and downloaded the figures showing how rampant third-party payment has resulted in consumers di…

Ah, spurious comparisons and anonymous blog posts - is there nothing you can't obscure? The US spends considerable amount of money aggressively attempting to treat what would otherwise be considered stillborns. I regret to inform you that this particular meme is without foundation. I have had extensive discussions with UK and Euro obstetricians about it and the story that there is some massively divergent standard of…

Not sure what you're calling spurious or anonymous by way of blog posts but do you have any references with respect to UN definitions? According to Wikipedia - depending on how reliable you consider them to be (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infant_mortality):

"The exclusion of any high-risk infants from the denominator or numerator in reported IMRs can be problematic for comparisons. Many countries, including the United States, Sweden or Germany, count an infant exhibiting any sign of life as alive, no matter the month of gestation or the size, but according to United States Centers for Disease Control researchers,[6] some other countries differ in these practices. All of the countries named adopted the WHO definitions in the late 1980s or early 1990s,[7] which are used throughout the European Union.[8] However, in 2009, the US CDC issued a report which stated that the American rates of infant mortality were affected by the United States' high rates of premature babies compared to European countries and which outlines the differences in reporting requirements between the United States and Europe, noting that France, the Czech Republic, Ireland, the Netherlands, and Poland do not report all live births of babies under 500 g and/or 22 weeks of gestation.[6][9][10] However, the report also concludes that the differences in reporting are unlikely to be the primary explanation for the United States’ relatively low international ranking.[10]"

An additional datapoint (pdf): http://repository.upenn.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1012...

Low Life Expectancy in the United States: Is the Health Care System at Fault? Samuel H. Preston & Jessica Ho

Abstract: "Life expectancy in the United States fares poorly in international comparisons, primarily because of high mortality rates above age 50. Its low ranking is often blamed on a poor performance by the health care system rather than on behavioral or social factors. This paper presents evidence on the relative performance of the US health care system using death avoidance as the sole criterion. We find that, by standards of OECD countries, the US does well in terms of screening for cancer, survival rates from cancer, survival rates after heart attacks and strokes, and medication of individuals with high levels of blood pressure or cholesterol. We consider in greater depth mortality from prostate cancer and breast cancer, diseases for which effective methods of identification and treatment have been developed and where behavioral factors do not play a dominant role. We show that the US has had significantly faster declines in mortality from these two diseases than comparison countries. We conclude that the low longevity ranking of the United States is not likely to be a result of a poorly functioning health care system."

Re: Cost of Health Care By Country, as Compared to Life Expectancy

#14

I wonder if this controls for various other lifestyle choices. I find it ironic that the government spends so much money subsidizing high fructose corn syrup, and then spends even more treating the health problems that result from it. If we didn't have an agricultural system that makes unhealthy food cheap and healthy food expensive, perhaps we wouldn't have quite so many obesity-related illnesses. Same thing with pa…

Good point...poor lifestyle drives healthcare costs up. It would be interesting to see fast food spending or avg calories/day on top of this chart.

Re: Cost of Health Care By Country, as Compared to Life Expectancy

#15
This is a terrible graph. It took me five minutes to figure out how everything is related. Data such as this is much more naturally plotted as an x-y scatter-plot. Thickness of the datapoints could indicate number of doctor visits. Instead, the graph eliminates the x-axis, but retains the space. Very strange choice.

Re: Cost of Health Care By Country, as Compared to Life Expectancy

#16
it's a great graph to illustrate how f-up healthcare in US is.

however, may I point out that life expectancy at birth is pretty poor measure of healthcare efficiency.

japanese are living very long lives, but it is no secret that depression and suicide is the major problem there, especially in younger generations.

Re: Cost of Health Care By Country, as Compared to Life Expectancy

#17

Some reasons American medicine is very expensive: 1. Health insurance, but not treatment, is fully tax deductible. So if you buy your own penicillin, it's with after tax money, but if your insurance company buys it, it's pre-tax money. That's one of the reasons that health insurance is so widespred in America even for routine medicine like antibiotics and checkups. That's a major contributing factor in why the admini…

I agree with your overall point that the U.S. medical system suffers from overregulation. We could (and should) allow more primary care to be performed by, for instance, qualified nurses, RNs, and nurse-practitioners. As you point out, the existing guilds hate this idea.

But your first point needs some correction. Health insurance is only tax-deductible when it's paid for by your employer. [EDIT: Just noticed you mention this lower down, but your first paragraph gives a misleading impression.]

This is perverse in multiple ways. There's the way you mention: that it subsidizes health care over other forms of compensation, so we wind up spending more on health care than we would otherwise.

But also, with particular relevance to HN, it subsidizes employment over other kinds of work. If you leave your job to start a startup, you lose a substantial tax advantage.

Re: Cost of Health Care By Country, as Compared to Life Expectancy

#18
post #15

This is a terrible graph. It took me five minutes to figure out how everything is related. Data such as this is much more naturally plotted as an x-y scatter-plot. Thickness of the datapoints could indicate number of doctor visits. Instead, the graph eliminates the x-axis, but retains the space. Very strange choice.

I agree that it's unfamiliar, but once you've figured out how to read it, it strikingly demonstrates the degree to which the U.S. is an outlier.

Re: Cost of Health Care By Country, as Compared to Life Expectancy

#19

Some reasons American medicine is very expensive: 1. Health insurance, but not treatment, is fully tax deductible. So if you buy your own penicillin, it's with after tax money, but if your insurance company buys it, it's pre-tax money. That's one of the reasons that health insurance is so widespred in America even for routine medicine like antibiotics and checkups. That's a major contributing factor in why the admini…

Regarding point 4, what would prevent a drug company from claiming that, say, Aspirin could cure AIDS? I do not think that is a stretch, either. If companies can profit from selling pills to increase penis length, I see no reason why they wouldn't make other claims if they were legal.

I do not trust in the market to correct unverified claims; many people want to believe in miracle cures, and will buy snake oil despite others decrying it as such.

Re: Cost of Health Care By Country, as Compared to Life Expectancy

#20
post #2

A response to the graphic suggests that while "this was evidence of an insane and inefficient healthcare system", "if [they] really wanted a chart that captures what’s wrong with America’s healthcare system, [they] should have gone to the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services’ national health expenditures data website and downloaded the figures showing how rampant third-party payment has resulted in consumers di…

Ah, spurious comparisons and anonymous blog posts - is there nothing you can't obscure? The US spends considerable amount of money aggressively attempting to treat what would otherwise be considered stillborns. I regret to inform you that this particular meme is without foundation. I have had extensive discussions with UK and Euro obstetricians about it and the story that there is some massively divergent standard of…

Listening to just the Euro OBs seems no better or worse to me than just listening to the US OBs. I was initially going to suggest that you also speak with US OBs, but then realized that it's not really possible to just decide to do it one morning without purchasing expensive tickets, etc. But I do hope that you'll agree that the pitfalls of one-sidedness apply to both sides.

Regarding standardization, it does not seem to me to obviate the problem of comparison between unequals in this case. I know you are familiar with these concepts since you referenced them, but I will provide them for other readers; here are the WHO definitions relevant to neonatal mortality:

"The neonatal period commences at birth and ends 28 completed days after birth.

Live birth refers to the complete expulsion or extraction from its mother of a product of conception, irrespective of the duration of the pregnancy, which, after such separation, breathes or shows any other evidence of life - e.g. beating of the heart, pulsation of the umbilical cord or definite movement of voluntary muscles - whether or not the umbilical cord has been cut or the placenta is attached. Each product of such a birth is considered live born."

The key is that live birth counts irrespective of the duration of the pregnancy. Viability begins around 23 weeks with extraordinary measures (give or take, depending on how aggressive your care may be). Depending on your approach, aggressive care may improve such statistics (if the care is aggressive only after live birth), or worsen such statistics (if aggressive care also occurs prior to live birth and includes things such as induction).

So (a) I think it's actually quite a muddled issue, and (b) I could see aggressive care pushing these stats either way, depending on the timing and methodology of care. It's a legitimate issue that well-meaning people are interested in (in contrast to those who feel that family planning is a step away from forced abortions, who are simply ideologues).

Post reply on HN