The Effects of Computer Programming on the Brain (2012) • Hacker News Board

Re: The Effects of Computer Programming on the Brain (2012)

#11

Post by michaelfeathers » Sun, Sep 06, 2015, 2:33 PM UTC

ching_wow_ka wrote: post #4

A quote from someone who commented on the page: "When the programming addicts on Hacker News write about programming addiction, they almost never call it programming addiction. Usually they call it being passionate about programming. And in their opinion, programmers who are not passionate about programming are bad programmers." Not saying I agree, but it could be the start of an interesting discussion.

I don't like seeing the language of addiction and recovery expanded to new areas like this. It's a way of putting moral frame on behavior that can be healthy and enriching.

I first felt this way when I saw "addiction" applied as a label to kids who prefered playing video games to going outside. My response was "did they call it addiction before video games when kids played with blocks and action figures indoors?" They didn't. It's easy for people to reach for the term "addiction" when they want to pathologize behavior they don't like.

Fact is, the dopamine cycle is a natural part of life. The problem isn't whether something is addictive or not, it's whether the side effects of that pleasure cycle are harmful. I've had periods in my life where I've spent weeks and months at a time "heads down" in programming. It was always as controllable as it was pleasurable.

Re: The Effects of Computer Programming on the Brain (2012)

#12

Post by PopeOfNope » Sun, Sep 06, 2015, 2:52 PM UTC

jasode wrote: post #10

This article isn't really about the " effects of programming on the brain. " Instead, the author has a pre-determined value judgement of what is a "good" or "bad" allocation of priorities. From that premise, he works backwards to a observation that coding can be addictive. This addictiveness is then judged as "bad": >someone who may be suffering from what I can only really describe as coding addiction, the solution m…

I wouldn't qualify this as an addiction either[0], but it's still good to know what motivates programmer behavior and the dopamine cycle is definitely a factor. The real question is how do we use this information in a productive way (better code quality) rather than a destructive way (needless code complexity).

[0]: My personal definition of addiction is, if you were to stop doing X activity for a week cold turkey, would you experience withdrawal symptoms?

Re: The Effects of Computer Programming on the Brain (2012)

#13

Post by mreiland » Sun, Sep 06, 2015, 3:48 PM UTC

michaelfeathers wrote: post #11

ching_wow_ka wrote: post #4

A quote from someone who commented on the page: "When the programming addicts on Hacker News write about programming addiction, they almost never call it programming addiction. Usually they call it being passionate about programming. And in their opinion, programmers who are not passionate about programming are bad programmers." Not saying I agree, but it could be the start of an interesting discussion.

I don't like seeing the language of addiction and recovery expanded to new areas like this. It's a way of putting moral frame on behavior that can be healthy and enriching. I first felt this way when I saw "addiction" applied as a label to kids who prefered playing video games to going outside. My response was "did they call it addiction before video games when kids played with blocks and action figures indoors?" The…

Especially when you consider many of those kids went on to help create a billion dollar industry and make a good life for themselves.

Re: The Effects of Computer Programming on the Brain (2012)

#14

Post by Sirenos » Sun, Sep 06, 2015, 3:50 PM UTC

michaelfeathers wrote: post #11

ching_wow_ka wrote: post #4

A quote from someone who commented on the page: "When the programming addicts on Hacker News write about programming addiction, they almost never call it programming addiction. Usually they call it being passionate about programming. And in their opinion, programmers who are not passionate about programming are bad programmers." Not saying I agree, but it could be the start of an interesting discussion.

I don't like seeing the language of addiction and recovery expanded to new areas like this. It's a way of putting moral frame on behavior that can be healthy and enriching. I first felt this way when I saw "addiction" applied as a label to kids who prefered playing video games to going outside. My response was "did they call it addiction before video games when kids played with blocks and action figures indoors?" The…

Except there are legitimate health-risks to playing video games for extended periods, which I believe is what you mean when you say "preferring video games to the outside world". Both are odds with healthy development if allowed without restrictions, but they are hardly equivalent in their effects on the body.

Re: The Effects of Computer Programming on the Brain (2012)

#15

Post by batmoon » Sun, Sep 06, 2015, 4:28 PM UTC

So the burnout I've experienced has actually been withdrawal and after 18 months off kilter I've suddenly been reminded how to remedy my malaise.

Re: The Effects of Computer Programming on the Brain (2012)

#16

Post by outofcuriosity » Sun, Sep 06, 2015, 5:14 PM UTC

PopeOfNope wrote: post #12

jasode wrote: post #10

This article isn't really about the " effects of programming on the brain. " Instead, the author has a pre-determined value judgement of what is a "good" or "bad" allocation of priorities. From that premise, he works backwards to a observation that coding can be addictive. This addictiveness is then judged as "bad": >someone who may be suffering from what I can only really describe as coding addiction, the solution m…

I wouldn't qualify this as an addiction either[0], but it's still good to know what motivates programmer behavior and the dopamine cycle is definitely a factor. The real question is how do we use this information in a productive way (better code quality) rather than a destructive way (needless code complexity). [0]: My personal definition of addiction is, if you were to stop doing X activity for a week cold turkey, w…

People barred from flow often experience intense anxiety; I'd imagine that the "addicted" programmer not experiencing code flow would just replace that need with something like a high-complexity videogame.

The author's scope is maybe too narrow by focusing only on programmers. Perhaps this problem can be generalized to a type of individual that requires the flow state to the extent that their other behavior is perturbed or dysfunctional. Compare Richard Feynman's explosive rage when distracted from calculus or drums...

Re: The Effects of Computer Programming on the Brain (2012)

#17

Post by goldfeld » Sun, Sep 06, 2015, 5:37 PM UTC

outofcuriosity wrote: post #16

PopeOfNope wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't qualify this as an addiction either[0], but it's still good to know what motivates programmer behavior and the dopamine cycle is definitely a factor. The real question is how do we use this information in a productive way (better code quality) rather than a destructive way (needless code complexity). [0]: My personal definition of addiction is, if you were to stop doing X activity for a week cold turkey, w…

People barred from flow often experience intense anxiety; I'd imagine that the "addicted" programmer not experiencing code flow would just replace that need with something like a high-complexity videogame. The author's scope is maybe too narrow by focusing only on programmers. Perhaps this problem can be generalized to a type of individual that requires the flow state to the extent that their other behavior is pertur…

Yeah, when I had to stop dancing--an activity that gives me a flow experience every day--for weeks because of a twisted foot tendon, I became a mess of anxiety, and even resorting to singing sessions wouldn't quite give me my "fix", or fix me so to speak. Likewise, it's not about having to stop programming, it's about, for example, having to stop working on a project in which you have lots of daily momentum and flow. I think it's a proper addiction. Now if it's just half-hearted programming, nobody misses it much.

Re: The Effects of Computer Programming on the Brain (2012)

#18

Post by goldfeld » Sun, Sep 06, 2015, 5:41 PM UTC

michaelfeathers wrote: post #11

ching_wow_ka wrote: post #4

A quote from someone who commented on the page: "When the programming addicts on Hacker News write about programming addiction, they almost never call it programming addiction. Usually they call it being passionate about programming. And in their opinion, programmers who are not passionate about programming are bad programmers." Not saying I agree, but it could be the start of an interesting discussion.

I don't like seeing the language of addiction and recovery expanded to new areas like this. It's a way of putting moral frame on behavior that can be healthy and enriching. I first felt this way when I saw "addiction" applied as a label to kids who prefered playing video games to going outside. My response was "did they call it addiction before video games when kids played with blocks and action figures indoors?" The…

It's controllable until some outside force stops it cold, like what if you got wrist injury in the midst of your coding weeks, or a kid playing videogames daily has her console stop functioning? A lot of anxiety will ensue if you don't have a fallback activity. Weren't you addicted? That said, getting addicted to a purposeful programming project is more beneficial than harmful for me.

Re: The Effects of Computer Programming on the Brain (2012)

#19

Post by dominotw » Sun, Sep 06, 2015, 5:49 PM UTC

One of the things I've noticed by being in front of the computer all the time is that my brain never gets a chance to reminisce my past. My past is just a blurry memory indistinguishable from a hallucination.

Internet Screens have fundamentally changed human brain.

Re: The Effects of Computer Programming on the Brain (2012)

#20

Post by nicklaf » Sun, Sep 06, 2015, 6:09 PM UTC

dominotw wrote: post #19

One of the things I've noticed by being in front of the computer all the time is that my brain never gets a chance to reminisce my past. My past is just a blurry memory indistinguishable from a hallucination. Internet Screens have fundamentally changed human brain.

This sounds like it could be quite bad for learning. I've found my learning of an abstract subject, such as mathematics, greatly increases when I can take a step back at each successive milestone of progress.

In contrast, when everything simply blurs together, there are no clearly delineated chunks of memory to latch linguistic markers onto, and I fail to build abstractions out of those thoughts.

Of course, this concern may be moot in the case of computer programming, since the abstractions involved are often concretely represented by the computer itself! In a way, when we program, we are outsourcing a part of our brain, relying on a smaller subset of mental capacity, and relying on the computer to amplify it back again, by handling the abstractions for us.

OTOH, this may simply be proof that going to the whiteboard before coding up a solution is a healthy alternative to hacking away at the keyboard all day without thought.