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They Killed My Lawyer

foreignpolicy.com

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Re: They Killed My Lawyer

#11

Post by osipov »

ellyagg wrote: post #10
osipov wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Digging deeper into the story, it appears that the author (Bill Browder) is someone who profited from the criminal pillaging of Russian economy in 1990s: "[Bill Browder's] business was very successful, profiting from the wave of privatizations occurring in the Russia at that time" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Browder . May I remind you of a Hacker's News thread that talked about Russia's corrupt oligarchs of 199…

Wow, it sounds like you actually condone the spirit of what happened. As an American it's strange to imagine celebrating rule of force over rule of law. The US falls woefully short at times, but I can't imagine anyone cheering fraudulent theft of tax money to pander to voters. I also find it hard to believe someone would behave as the lawyer in this story did merely over ill-intentioned greed.

>>As an American it's strange to imagine celebrating rule of force over rule of law

What about Al Capone? The guy was caught on tax evasion charges, was US government's rule of force justified in his case?

Re: They Killed My Lawyer

#12

Post by andrewvc »

osipov wrote: post #7
cema wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am of the same ancestry as you are, but my opinion differs. My father, who was born in 1924 and thus survived both Hitler and Stalin, has recently told me that the situation reminds him of the Stalin's period. He is an old man now, but he has not lost his faculties (still working as an engineer, at the age of almost 86), and I am sure he has thought about what he was saying. On the other hand, he was not afraid to…

With all due respect to your father who survived through very difficult times, I doubt that he agrees with the statement "Stalinism and the gulags are alive and well in Russia today"

I think you're right in a certain strict sense, however I think most people understand that statement to be hyperbole. The sentence perhaps should have ended with 'in some respects', but I think that kind of goes without saying.

Secondly, in America everyone knows about the Holocaust, and the right wing's been using it for months now to bash healthcare reform and their own twisted definition of socialism. People will mangle history because it suits their purposes, not because of some little article in Foreign Affairs.

Re: They Killed My Lawyer

#13

Post by chrischen »

osipov wrote: post #6
osipov wrote: post #4

>>It is also a story about how Stalinism and the gulags are alive and well in Russia today. It is difficult to convey the depth of my disgust after reading the above sentence from the first paragraph of the article. I share both Russian and Jewish heritages and to my dismay I frequently encounter writings that belittle the history of Holocaust. In comparison, Stalinism and gulags are less known to the Western audienc…

Digging deeper into the story, it appears that the author (Bill Browder) is someone who profited from the criminal pillaging of Russian economy in 1990s: "[Bill Browder's] business was very successful, profiting from the wave of privatizations occurring in the Russia at that time" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Browder . May I remind you of a Hacker's News thread that talked about Russia's corrupt oligarchs of 199…

Wikipedia also says: "Browder exposed management corruption and corporate malfeasance in these partly state-owned companies"

Re: They Killed My Lawyer

#14

Post by osipov »

chrischen wrote: post #13
osipov wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Digging deeper into the story, it appears that the author (Bill Browder) is someone who profited from the criminal pillaging of Russian economy in 1990s: "[Bill Browder's] business was very successful, profiting from the wave of privatizations occurring in the Russia at that time" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Browder . May I remind you of a Hacker's News thread that talked about Russia's corrupt oligarchs of 199…

Wikipedia also says: "Browder exposed management corruption and corporate malfeasance in these partly state-owned companies"

There is plenty of corruption everywhere in Russia. There is no point in trying to find saints or sinners in the story. Rather one should recognize the hypocrisy of kettle calling a pot black.

Re: They Killed My Lawyer

#15

Post by osipov »

andrewvc wrote: post #12
osipov wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With all due respect to your father who survived through very difficult times, I doubt that he agrees with the statement "Stalinism and the gulags are alive and well in Russia today"

I think you're right in a certain strict sense, however I think most people understand that statement to be hyperbole. The sentence perhaps should have ended with 'in some respects', but I think that kind of goes without saying. Secondly, in America everyone knows about the Holocaust, and the right wing's been using it for months now to bash healthcare reform and their own twisted definition of socialism. People will…

When people try to rewrite history to suit their purposes we should hold those people accountable through debate. Those who chose to use hyperbole (e.g. this article) or misrepresentations (e.g. healthcare reform) have their right to free speech but they should be ready to face facts and to respect rights of others to have a different opinion.

Re: They Killed My Lawyer

#16

Post by andrewvc »

osipov wrote: post #15
andrewvc wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're right in a certain strict sense, however I think most people understand that statement to be hyperbole. The sentence perhaps should have ended with 'in some respects', but I think that kind of goes without saying. Secondly, in America everyone knows about the Holocaust, and the right wing's been using it for months now to bash healthcare reform and their own twisted definition of socialism. People will…

When people try to rewrite history to suit their purposes we should hold those people accountable through debate. Those who chose to use hyperbole (e.g. this article) or misrepresentations (e.g. healthcare reform) have their right to free speech but they should be ready to face facts and to respect rights of others to have a different opinion.

Hey, I agree with those principles, I just think this guy was using a tiny bit of artistic license, and he had a reasonable expectation that his readership would understand that he did not mean that Russia was now exactly like the USSR under Stalin.

Re: They Killed My Lawyer

#17

Post by osipov »

andrewvc wrote: post #16
osipov wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When people try to rewrite history to suit their purposes we should hold those people accountable through debate. Those who chose to use hyperbole (e.g. this article) or misrepresentations (e.g. healthcare reform) have their right to free speech but they should be ready to face facts and to respect rights of others to have a different opinion.

Hey, I agree with those principles, I just think this guy was using a tiny bit of artistic license, and he had a reasonable expectation that his readership would understand that he did not mean that Russia was now exactly like the USSR under Stalin.

Good, so we do agree on something :) However there is a problem once we take the artistic license to its logical conclusion: Bill Browder, the author of the article, has an artistic license to voice his biased opinions. Given that he welds a certain amount of influence needed to publish in Foreign Policy, he is given an artistic license to persuade less influential readers. Thus we are faced with a situation where strong (i.e. influential) weld more powerful opinions than the weak (i.e. those who can't influence opinion by publishing in Foreign Policy). We can call this state of affairs a "rule of force". How is the rule of force with respect to opinion different from the rule of force with respect to money?

Re: They Killed My Lawyer

#19

Post by Retric »

osipov wrote: post #17
andrewvc wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey, I agree with those principles, I just think this guy was using a tiny bit of artistic license, and he had a reasonable expectation that his readership would understand that he did not mean that Russia was now exactly like the USSR under Stalin.

Good, so we do agree on something :) However there is a problem once we take the artistic license to its logical conclusion: Bill Browder, the author of the article, has an artistic license to voice his biased opinions. Given that he welds a certain amount of influence needed to publish in Foreign Policy, he is given an artistic license to persuade less influential readers. Thus we are faced with a situation where st…

The implication that he is only able to convince less influential people with his writing is a mistake. IMO, his goal is to also influence people that have far more ability to effect change than he does and to entertain people who already agree with him on core issues. When you influence people with money it tends to target people with less influence than you have. (Excluding direct bribes.)

Outside of specific narrow areas our society is still more predicated on convincing people with power than those without it. Elections tend to ride on a tiny number of issues like abortion and outside of major issues like Chinese trade and Iraq there is little point to convince a Midwestern voter that you are correct.

Re: They Killed My Lawyer

#20

Post by rms »

huhtenberg wrote: post #18

Perhaps I am missing something obvious, but how is this HN material ?

Please, please, let us not start a "not Hacker News" meta-discussion. If you think this post is egregiously off-topic, flag it, don't complain in the thread.
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