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Would Chinese-style education work on British kids?

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Re: Would Chinese-style education work on British kids?

#11
post #3

>It is, however, abundantly clear to me that Chinese parents, culture and values are the real reasons that Shanghai Province tops the oft-cited Pisa tables rather than superior teaching practice. Yes, there's a reason that the High Expectations Asian Father is a meme[1]. Even at home outside of school, the strict attitude of always being mindful of schooling was also made famous by the Tiger Mom author.[2] When kids…

I agree. There is a lot of emphasis put on the education systems when the real difference is the culture

Re: Would Chinese-style education work on British kids?

#12
Would it help children achieve higher scores on standardized tests? I find it easy to believe it would. But does that actually help anyone?

Might some children prefer it over less regimented styles of education? I find it easy to believe that some would, because in the Chinese style, it's clear what they're supposed to be doing at any given moment, and clear what their goal is (to achieve high scores). But does this actually help anyone? The problem as I see it is that they are practicing in an unambiguous situation when life itself is inherently ambiguous.

Re: Would Chinese-style education work on British kids?

#13
post #8

Chinese education kills the real genius, but does make the ordinary kids a skillful engineer(relatively), so the best kids still want to go overseas while the rest can do math better than any other west countries after repeatedly practice. The USA education system does allow their top kids fly freely(which is really a small percentage), however the demanding on the average kids are too little, many kids gave up or dr…

I'll pull out one part of your comment to ask a question: you wrote,

The USA education system does allow their top kids fly freely(which is really a small percentage)

and I would like to ask, where does that happen? What place in the United States allows the top kids to fly freely? I ask, because I interact online most regularly with parents who have children identified as gifted children through regional Talent Search programs or specialized summer mathematics programs or the Davidson Institute for Talent Development.[1] I only very rarely hear of "top kids" (by any reasonable definition of top kids) whose parents report that the USA education system allows their children to fly freely. I just looked at your Hacker News user profile to see if you identify what country you are from. It is unusual enough here in the United States to say "USA education system" rather than "U.S. education system" or "United States education system" that I wonder whether you have ever experienced the education system here in the United States during your own education. On my part, I get the distinct impression that the United States education system underperforms for all learners in its care,[2] although not as badly as, say, Mexico's or India's.

[1] http://www.davidsongifted.org/

[2] http://timssandpirls.bc.edu/timss2011/international-results-...

http://educationnext.org/when-the-best-is-mediocre/

Re: Would Chinese-style education work on British kids?

#14

It made me kind of sad when the British students preferred copying things from a chalkboard. I tried to implement a flipped classroom -- 15 minutes of "lecture" at the beginning, 25 minutes of group practice, 15 minutes of individual practice, then a 5 minute formative assessment/quiz -- when I taught chemistry in a low-income public high school in Mississippi. My students were really disoriented at first and preferr…

Is it really normal for American high school teachers to lecture for the entire period? No exercises, just note-taking?

I hazard to guess that the British students prefer copying things from a chalkboard because it's a novelty and requires considerably less effort than doing exercises. If they did it on a regular basis they'd quickly get bored.

Re: Would Chinese-style education work on British kids?

#15
A reader of this thread asked me off-forum to comment here. I've been reading the comments posted earlier in this thread, and just finished reading the fine article. I wonder how much background on the school and the teachers (both the British teachers and the Chinese teachers) the full television program provides. I felt that the article kindly submitted here teased with just a few details and didn't provide a lot of context. For example, when the article notes, "an experiment was carried out at the Bohunt School in Liphook," I immediately wonder what kind of school that is compared to other schools in Britain, especially when I see the headteacher of the British school say, "As the weeks passed, thanks both to the support of Bohunt's pastoral staff and a slight shift towards a teaching approach more recognisable to our pupils, behaviour improved." Most schools here in the United States, and I think most schools in Britain too, do not have a "pastoral staff," and maybe that school and its students are unrepresentative of students in general in the English-speaking world.

The point in the article that students have to be acculturated to what their school expects is very well taken. Students at a school-within-a-school for highly gifted students (a situation that exists in my local school district) have to be especially brought on board a school culture that differs from everyday school culture. And so it is for any school that introduces a change in curriculum, and for any school enrolling students who used to live elsewhere and attend other schools (a VERY common situation in the United States, and a situation I experienced while growing up).

Several comments here talk about "copying" or "regimentation," but the fine article points out that the Chinese teacher wanted to inductively lead students through a proof of the Pythagorean theorem--something I have done for much younger students here in the United States--while the British students insisted on just being told applications of the theorem without having to think about how the theorem is proved. A Minnesota Public Radio report just yesterday, based on a recent Aspen Ideas Festival discussion, "Is Math Important?"[1] includes statements that I think are factually incorrect about comparisons between education in the United States and education in China, but I have to agree with Professor Jo Boaler's statement that a mathematics lesson in secondary school in China is anything but memorization--it is all about students discovering mathematical ideas by pursuing a few hard problems each day with group discussion. There is a whole book about what Americans don't know about how elementary mathematics is taught in China[2] that is a good read for any participant here on Hacker News.

To answer the question posed by the article title, "Not without a lot of careful preparation, but it could possibly be an improvement for some students in some British schools."

[1] http://www.mprnews.org/story/2015/08/03/mpr_news_presents

[2] http://www.amazon.com/Knowing-Teaching-Elementary-Mathematic...

http://condor.depaul.edu/sepp/mat660/Askey.pdf

Re: Would Chinese-style education work on British kids?

#16

It made me kind of sad when the British students preferred copying things from a chalkboard. I tried to implement a flipped classroom -- 15 minutes of "lecture" at the beginning, 25 minutes of group practice, 15 minutes of individual practice, then a 5 minute formative assessment/quiz -- when I taught chemistry in a low-income public high school in Mississippi. My students were really disoriented at first and preferr…

Is it really normal for American high school teachers to lecture for the entire period? No exercises, just note-taking? I hazard to guess that the British students prefer copying things from a chalkboard because it's a novelty and requires considerably less effort than doing exercises. If they did it on a regular basis they'd quickly get bored.

Depends on the class. History tends to have a lot of lectures. Science classes, math and English I don't recall as many (this was about 10 years ago). Also varies by teacher and I would assume school.

Re: Would Chinese-style education work on British kids?

#17

A reader of this thread asked me off-forum to comment here. I've been reading the comments posted earlier in this thread, and just finished reading the fine article. I wonder how much background on the school and the teachers (both the British teachers and the Chinese teachers) the full television program provides. I felt that the article kindly submitted here teased with just a few details and didn't provide a lot o…

Most schools here in the United States, and I think most schools in Britain too, do not have a "pastoral staff,"

The American schools I've seen did have such staff, but they called them guidance counselors or something like that.

Re: Would Chinese-style education work on British kids?

#19
I had an extremely unusual k-12 education - homeschooled in a very rigorous fashion the entire way. There was a very specific curricula, a hard start time, along with specific hours for specific tasks. My mother has a bachelor's degree and taught at an old-fashioned private school prior to my birth. Each specific hour was for a particular subject, with some % dedicated to lecture(ish), along with some % for seatwork. So even for homeschoolers, I was unusual in this discipline and educator's background.

So. I judge that my education's implementation was neither "Chinese" nor "American (British-ish?)" (I quote these words, because I don't know that they are adequately representative). However, I think that the conceptual precepts were much closer to the "Chinese" approach. Education and learning were expected. For instance, it would have been completely inappropriate and unacceptable for me to:

- complain about clothing (I did not have clothing requirements - if I had gone to a school with a uniform, so long as the clothing was functionally adequate for the weather, it would not have been acceptable to moan about fashion).

- complain about having no say in my education. In time, I got the chance to co-design my curriculum on the elective level, but not taking Math (as an example) would have been unacceptable and not up for discussion.

- Not doing assigned work. I was expected to complete the day's assignments. Interestingly, my school day finished at around 2pm (started at 8), with the rest of the day for assignments and my own time. The goal was understanding, not memorization (beyond the obvious facts that need remembering).

- complain about dullness. There was no conception that entertainment (i.e., fun) was part of the purpose of education. It was - in a hazy and unforced way - my duty and obligation to learn. Learning was the entire orientation; if it was dull, it was dull: sucking it up and moving on was the way to go.

A portion of how I was taught was entirely along the lines that the maths teacher (Mr. Zou) delineated:

> . When I first introduced Pythagoras's theorem, I decided to let the students find the proposition, prove and apply the theorem. That process is an important feature of maths teaching in China.

> But a lot of students said they found it unnecessary to prove Pythagoras's theorem - knowing how to apply it was enough.

Understanding the essence of the problem was a key component of the situation. Simply turning the math (or grammar, or history) crank and having an answer falling out was not considered to be a "good" way of going, and to perform at that level was to be only adequate. It was not the expected level - the expectation was to understand the material enough to build the equation. Learning in depth was normative, not unusual. This is very important to understand. I was not pulled out of school because I was gifted and talented. I was placed into homeschooling because my parents judged that the public schools of the area were inadequate to deliver an adequate education, which includes understanding the causes of the knowledge.

This expectation of in-depth understanding was then fed into the process of curriculum selection and analysis as I shifted into "high school" grades. As I prepared for college, my parents and I cooperated in building my coursework and knowledge base. In this I believe we sharply diverged from the "Chinese" model, as I was given broad freedom to learn on my own outside of the non-elective areas.

Fundamentally, education in my youth years was part of the appropriate process of growing up and becoming a fully formed adult. Not having a deep education was simply out of the question.

I think - given my experience - that the "Chinese" have a much better handle on how to educate. Let's dissect this -

> I'm used to speaking my mind in class, being bold, giving ideas, often working in groups to advance my skills and improve my knowledge.

The basic question here is - are the student's ideas worth hearing ? If the student's ideas were that good, perhaps they shouldn't be in the class. I recall very distinctly group work/group grading in college. I did not go to that class to be graded by my classmates - they were equally ignorant as I was! I wanted to learn from someone who knew what they were doing! But this also presupposes that the teacher also knows the subject adequately. Learning doesn't have to be unpleasant, but it's better to learn unpleasantly than to remain blissfully ignorant.

Re: Would Chinese-style education work on British kids?

#20

It made me kind of sad when the British students preferred copying things from a chalkboard. I tried to implement a flipped classroom -- 15 minutes of "lecture" at the beginning, 25 minutes of group practice, 15 minutes of individual practice, then a 5 minute formative assessment/quiz -- when I taught chemistry in a low-income public high school in Mississippi. My students were really disoriented at first and preferr…

Is it really normal for American high school teachers to lecture for the entire period? No exercises, just note-taking? I hazard to guess that the British students prefer copying things from a chalkboard because it's a novelty and requires considerably less effort than doing exercises. If they did it on a regular basis they'd quickly get bored.

It was when I was in High School. I used to alternate with a friend: one brings the notebook, one brings the pillow.

Pro Tip: Do not try the above in English class; many teachers will use subjectively graded assignments to punish you for sleeping through their lectures.

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