The double life of Hasidic atheists
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Re: The double life of Hasidic atheists
#2Materialistic rationalism is so outdated. Have these folks heard of Kant? Even Jewish thinkers (Hasidic and non Hasidic alike) viewed him with respect.
Re: The double life of Hasidic atheists
#3One interesting thing is that even if they did tell people they were Atheist, but continued observing Judaism with action, nothing much would happen.
They would not be shunned or anything.
Judaism is much more concerned with actions than thought, it's also more concerned with this world than with heaven.
There is a saying from the Talmud that "a person who acts without belief will eventually come to believe". Meaning that's it's perfectly fine to do the action without the intent, even for years, even for their whole life. Not just OK, but actually encouraged.
(They saying applies also to smaller things than belief, for example someone who gives charity not to help someone, but because they like being praised is still lauded for their action. Eventually they will come to give charity to help someone, rather than for what they get from it.)
Re: The double life of Hasidic atheists
#4Also see "Caught in the pulpit", about preachers turned atheists yet unable to quit. One of the authors of the book is Daniel Dennett, one of the most inspiring rationalist contemporary philosphers.
http://www.amazon.com/Caught-The-Pulpit-Leaving-Belief/dp/06...
Re: The double life of Hasidic atheists
#5>[Athiests who reveal themselves] risk losing their children, especially in New York State, where custody is often given to the more religious parent.
Interesting, I wonder why that would be? Is it because American courts are biased towards religious people in general? But in that case, wouldn't a liberal state like New York be less biased? Could it possibly be because of bias of courts in New York towards the Jewish community?
Re: The double life of Hasidic atheists
#6One interesting thing is that even if they did tell people they were Atheist, but continued observing Judaism with action, nothing much would happen. They would not be shunned or anything. Judaism is much more concerned with actions than thought, it's also more concerned with this world than with heaven. There is a saying from the Talmud that "a person who acts without belief will eventually come to believe". Meaning…
What you're saying would certainly apply to contemporary regular jews- but I'm not so sure it's true of the Hasidim that this guy is so deeply embedded with. It really is a foreign culture, and unless you have experience with it, you'd never be able to imagine just how jewish it's possible to get.
Re: The double life of Hasidic atheists
#7One interesting thing is that even if they did tell people they were Atheist, but continued observing Judaism with action, nothing much would happen. They would not be shunned or anything. Judaism is much more concerned with actions than thought, it's also more concerned with this world than with heaven. There is a saying from the Talmud that "a person who acts without belief will eventually come to believe". Meaning…
What you're saying would certainly apply to contemporary regular jews- but I'm not so sure it's true of the Hasidim that this guy is so deeply embedded with. It really is a foreign culture, and unless you have experience with it, you'd never be able to imagine just how jewish it's possible to get.
What makes you think I don't have experience with it?
Yes Hasidim would say exactly the same thing. Perhaps with some pressure to increase learning. As long as he assured people that he performed the actions, they would only have a problem if he tried to "convert" as it were others.
Re: The double life of Hasidic atheists
#8One interesting thing is that even if they did tell people they were Atheist, but continued observing Judaism with action, nothing much would happen. They would not be shunned or anything. Judaism is much more concerned with actions than thought, it's also more concerned with this world than with heaven. There is a saying from the Talmud that "a person who acts without belief will eventually come to believe". Meaning…
Action vs desire ... interesting contrast with xtianity: “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery. But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart."
Re: The double life of Hasidic atheists
#9Re: The double life of Hasidic atheists
#10> The last time she showed signs of non-conformist behaviour, her husband consulted the community leaders. They sent her to see a mental health specialist, who medicated her. ‘The mental illness card has been used often in cases like mine,’ she wrote. She has since seen another mental health specialist; he gave her a clean bill of health.
That is pretty brutal. "Mental health" was often used by opressive regimes to discredit and punish dissidents. In the Soviet Union they would do that to religious figures (Orthodox Christian priests and political dissidents). The card then was flipped. The religious figures were basically considered "mentally ill" for believing that God exists, and they would be subjected to heavy doses of medications in order to "snap them out of it" in hopes they would see the truth. Of course, the true underlying reason was to remove them from public life so they don't spread those ideas, and as a side-effect torture to punish them so others may learn their lesson from it..