The Detroit Water Project (YC W15) Connects Donors to Unpaid Water Bills
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Re: The Detroit Water Project (YC W15) Connects Donors to Unpaid Water Bills
#2We updated the URL from http://blog.ycombinator.com/the-detroit-water-project-yc-w15..., which points to this.
Re: The Detroit Water Project (YC W15) Connects Donors to Unpaid Water Bills
#3It is useful to put projects like this in context. People are dying for want of $1000 - $5000 worth of medical treatment in poor countries.
"Donors have given over $170,000 for water bills for over 900 families in Detroit." 170 children's lives could have been saved for the same amount.
If you asked the beneficiaries of this project whether they would prefer a life was saved over their water bill being paid, I think most would say save a life.
Though these people are desperately poor (and probably rationally hopeless), they are citizens of a wealthy and powerful nation that will not let them suffer too much like over a billion other people with real problems do.
Watsi.org is a good place to start if you are serious about helping people.
I'm astounded that the practical and serious people at YC are participating in a goofball project like this that is competing for resources with serious efforts to do good.
Re: The Detroit Water Project (YC W15) Connects Donors to Unpaid Water Bills
#4From when giving stuff for free to people helps them?
How will they learn to save and organize their lives?
Social welfare was never a solution to ANY problem when provided long term to the same people.
Instead of giving for free lets do this - ask people to work for 8 hours a week cleaning streets etc - and IN EXCHANGE their water bills will be paid off.
Re: The Detroit Water Project (YC W15) Connects Donors to Unpaid Water Bills
#5From when giving stuff for free to people helps them? How will they learn to save and organize their lives? Social welfare was never a solution to ANY problem when provided long term to the same people. Instead of giving for free lets do this - ask people to work for 8 hours a week cleaning streets etc - and IN EXCHANGE their water bills will be paid off.
Do you seriously contend that the problems plaguing Detroit are a result of their residents' collective failure to organize their lives properly? I think most people agree that the rampant poverty in Detroit -- and the resulting unpaid water bills -- are largely a result of city-level mismanagement and the evaporation of employment opportunities resulting in tax-revenue death spiral. We're talking about a city where the police sometimes just don't show up in response to burglaries and the school system doesn't provide city-wide busing. And you're here lecturing the entire population of Detroit about financial responsibility.
Perhaps there are some Detroit residents who, if they were just a little more organized, could get themselves into a better situation. But some of them are just in bad situations no matter what they do. And who knows, maybe some of them haven't paid their water bills because they have decided that food, shelter, and medicine are more important. But nah, best to leave them with no running water. Otherwise, how will they learn?
Edit: I suspect if the city of Detroit offered the deal you're suggesting, there would be lines for it around the block (though even these lines would contain only the people who had transportation to get to the line, had someone to watch their children while they worked, etc.).
Re: The Detroit Water Project (YC W15) Connects Donors to Unpaid Water Bills
#6It is useful to put projects like this in context. People are dying for want of $1000 - $5000 worth of medical treatment in poor countries. "Donors have given over $170,000 for water bills for over 900 families in Detroit." 170 children's lives could have been saved for the same amount. If you asked the beneficiaries of this project whether they would prefer a life was saved over their water bill being paid, I think…
This is something I often ponder, and there are even more obvious targets for the sort of argument you're making. I typically think of the ASPCA -- I think the ASPCA is wonderful, and I love animals, but should anyone be donating money to ease the lives of animals when there are countless people, as you say, "dying of want"?
More realistically, though, I think we should understand that different people have different philanthropic interests. Maybe by offering a new cause we expand the total amount of money that people give, instead of taking money from the causes you deem to be more worthy? And isn't there an issue of autonomy here? I suspect we agree that nobody has to give money to anyone at all (except through taxes), so why not allow them the freedom to give in the way they find most meaningful, even if it does not have the greatest 'objective' impact?
Re: The Detroit Water Project (YC W15) Connects Donors to Unpaid Water Bills
#7From when giving stuff for free to people helps them? How will they learn to save and organize their lives? Social welfare was never a solution to ANY problem when provided long term to the same people. Instead of giving for free lets do this - ask people to work for 8 hours a week cleaning streets etc - and IN EXCHANGE their water bills will be paid off.
These people were doing fine before all the jobs disappeared. Whatever's wrong with Detroit, it's not that all the people magically forgot how to "organize their lives".
And objectively, giving people money works pretty well. https://web.archive.org/web/20101107195857/http://www.econom... https://web.archive.org/web/20141111020223/http://www.vox.co...
Re: The Detroit Water Project (YC W15) Connects Donors to Unpaid Water Bills
#8It is useful to put projects like this in context. People are dying for want of $1000 - $5000 worth of medical treatment in poor countries. "Donors have given over $170,000 for water bills for over 900 families in Detroit." 170 children's lives could have been saved for the same amount. If you asked the beneficiaries of this project whether they would prefer a life was saved over their water bill being paid, I think…
This is something I often ponder, and there are even more obvious targets for the sort of argument you're making. I typically think of the ASPCA -- I think the ASPCA is wonderful, and I love animals, but should anyone be donating money to ease the lives of animals when there are countless people, as you say, "dying of want"? More realistically, though, I think we should understand that different people have different…
"I think we should understand that different people have different philanthropic interests."
Yes, but they're wrong. Imagine seeing a hungry dog on the street. Going over to feed it is a virtuous thing to be sure. But, to step over and ignore someone choking to death on your way to the dog is not.
"give in the way they find most meaningful, even if it does not have the greatest 'objective' impact?"
It's easy to be fooled in our first world fantasy lives, but we are really living a world of men, women and children dying for want of sometimes as few as US$1000. Good is hardly good enough.
Something will surely fill every economic niche. If there are people who want to "donate" to the opera or dogs or cats or toys for tots, then some organization will find a way to serve that niche.
But, I think it is useful to oppose these goofball "charities" and educate people about lives they can save.
The stakes are very high. It is a matter of life and death.
Re: The Detroit Water Project (YC W15) Connects Donors to Unpaid Water Bills
#9It is useful to put projects like this in context. People are dying for want of $1000 - $5000 worth of medical treatment in poor countries. "Donors have given over $170,000 for water bills for over 900 families in Detroit." 170 children's lives could have been saved for the same amount. If you asked the beneficiaries of this project whether they would prefer a life was saved over their water bill being paid, I think…
And when it is widely known than there are no consequences to not paying your water bill, it's not surprising to see the numbers of people not paying increase. How many of the people having their bills paid just decided to stop paying because doing so was for suckers?
Re: The Detroit Water Project (YC W15) Connects Donors to Unpaid Water Bills
#10It is useful to put projects like this in context. People are dying for want of $1000 - $5000 worth of medical treatment in poor countries. "Donors have given over $170,000 for water bills for over 900 families in Detroit." 170 children's lives could have been saved for the same amount. If you asked the beneficiaries of this project whether they would prefer a life was saved over their water bill being paid, I think…
Founder of Detroit Water Project here. Despite what you’ve said, this is a serious effort to do good. You mention saving a life versus contributing to a water bill. Why are those so dissimilar? Our assistance application data shows that over 350 children are in houses affected by this crisis.
Not having running water at your house is a real problem. It’s a public health and sanitation issue. People have not been able to flush their toilets, clean, cook, or exist in a state of dignity.
On top of that, without running water in a house in Detroit, a house can be ruled unfit for habitation. That can translate to children being removed from the home because they're in a dwelling unfit for habitation. Preventing families from being broken up isn't goofing around.
It’s a false dichotomy to say that you either save a life by helping a child in a poor country OR give to a water bill in the United States. You can do both in proportion to your ability.
Yes, these people are citizens of a wealthy and powerful nation, but we’ve already seen that it’s allowed them to suffer greatly. The City of Detroit itself—especially before we forced them to react—turned people off with very little regard to someone’s ability to pay.
You should volunteer to help us return phone calls to people that need help. If you do, I’m sure you’ll find that this is as serious a project as any!
Edit: On losing children, etc.