Next version of Shen will be BSD licensed

#1

Post by tizoc » Tue, Jan 06, 2015, 2:00 PM UTC

Next version of Shen will be BSD licensed
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Re: Next version of Shen will be BSD licensed

#2

Post by reubensutton » Tue, Jan 06, 2015, 2:30 PM UTC

I had a read of the website, but I don't really understand what people use Shen for, but presumably, it has some benefits over other lisps?

Can anyone enlighten me?

Re: Next version of Shen will be BSD licensed

#3

Post by chriswarbo » Tue, Jan 06, 2015, 3:02 PM UTC

This is welcome news. Qi (the predecessor of Shen) gets mentioned every now and then in programming language discussions (eg. it has a Turing Complete type system), but I've refused to try it so far due to its non-Free license.

Re: Next version of Shen will be BSD licensed

#4

Post by VLM » Tue, Jan 06, 2015, 3:26 PM UTC

I'd like to buy the book related to the language, looks interesting, I am willing to pay list price, but fedex wants a mere $64 to ship it.

Meanwhile I'm an electronics experimenter kind of guy and I currently have some weird semiconductors arriving from China where the entire order including shipping was only about $45 (I believe the shipping portion was $8). Admittedly a very small and light packet compared to a textbook, but still...

In an online, ebook, internet world, something is wrong with $64 shipping charge from the UK yet only $8 from China. Maybe a helpful soul could have a pallet of books shipped to China, then send them around the world for the usual Chinese shipping "pocket change" cost.

Re: Next version of Shen will be BSD licensed

#5

Post by saosebastiao » Tue, Jan 06, 2015, 3:27 PM UTC

reubensutton wrote: post #2

I had a read of the website, but I don't really understand what people use Shen for, but presumably, it has some benefits over other lisps? Can anyone enlighten me?

It wasn't really used for anything before, because of the bizarre custom license.

However, it looks like it has a lot of interesting features that people might want to use. For example, it can be trivially embedded in pretty much any other language by implementing a handful of core functions. It has an embedded prolog DSL. It has pattern matching, static type checking, lazy evaluation.

Re: Next version of Shen will be BSD licensed

#6

Post by hga » Tue, Jan 06, 2015, 3:28 PM UTC

reubensutton wrote: post #2

I had a read of the website, but I don't really understand what people use Shen for, but presumably, it has some benefits over other lisps? Can anyone enlighten me?

From the fine website http://www.shenlanguage.org/

  Shen is a portable functional programming language that offers

  pattern matching,
  lambda calculus consistency,
  macros,
  optional lazy evaluation,
  static type checking,
  an integrated fully functional Prolog,
  and an inbuilt compiler-compiler.

Among other things, it's an attempt to create a Lisp that incorporates some of the things you find in functional languages like Haskell.

Here's an essay, from an invited talk for the 2009 European Conference on Lisp, on the motivations to create Qi and then Shen: http://www.lambdassociates.org/blog/nextlisp(1).htm

Re: Next version of Shen will be BSD licensed

#7

Post by hga » Tue, Jan 06, 2015, 3:33 PM UTC

VLM wrote: post #4

I'd like to buy the book related to the language, looks interesting, I am willing to pay list price, but fedex wants a mere $64 to ship it. Meanwhile I'm an electronics experimenter kind of guy and I currently have some weird semiconductors arriving from China where the entire order including shipping was only about $45 (I believe the shipping portion was $8). Admittedly a very small and light packet compared to a te…

What problems do you have with 7 pounds for airmail and 20 pounds for tracked airmail? I've used the airmail option to the US for the first edition of The Book of Shen without problem.

There's also online resources for learning that if you have enough functional programming background ought to be able to get you started: http://www.shenlanguage.org/learn-shen/index.html

Added: it's a 400 page print on demand book, I don't have a scale that's suitable for its weight range but the first edition, which has its form factor, is well over a pound.

(http://www.fast-print.net/bookshop/1506/the-book-of-shen-sec...)

Re: Next version of Shen will be BSD licensed

#8

Post by emidln » Tue, Jan 06, 2015, 3:49 PM UTC

hga wrote: post #7

VLM wrote: post #4

I'd like to buy the book related to the language, looks interesting, I am willing to pay list price, but fedex wants a mere $64 to ship it. Meanwhile I'm an electronics experimenter kind of guy and I currently have some weird semiconductors arriving from China where the entire order including shipping was only about $45 (I believe the shipping portion was $8). Admittedly a very small and light packet compared to a te…

What problems do you have with 7 pounds for airmail and 20 pounds for tracked airmail? I've used the airmail option to the US for the first edition of The Book of Shen without problem. There's also online resources for learning that if you have enough functional programming background ought to be able to get you started: http://www.shenlanguage.org/learn-shen/index.html Added: it's a 400 page print on demand book, I…

I purchased the second edition some months ago and seem to remember the airmail taking only about a week to get to the US.

Re: Next version of Shen will be BSD licensed

#9

Post by Igglyboo » Tue, Jan 06, 2015, 4:15 PM UTC

saosebastiao wrote: post #5

reubensutton wrote: post #2

I had a read of the website, but I don't really understand what people use Shen for, but presumably, it has some benefits over other lisps? Can anyone enlighten me?

It wasn't really used for anything before, because of the bizarre custom license. However, it looks like it has a lot of interesting features that people might want to use. For example, it can be trivially embedded in pretty much any other language by implementing a handful of core functions. It has an embedded prolog DSL. It has pattern matching, static type checking, lazy evaluation.

I just read over the license, didn't see too weird except the part about the spec. If I read it correctly you can't modify shen if your modifications don't conform to the specification.

Re: Next version of Shen will be BSD licensed

#10

Post by hga » Tue, Jan 06, 2015, 4:22 PM UTC

Igglyboo wrote: post #9

saosebastiao wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It wasn't really used for anything before, because of the bizarre custom license. However, it looks like it has a lot of interesting features that people might want to use. For example, it can be trivially embedded in pretty much any other language by implementing a handful of core functions. It has an embedded prolog DSL. It has pattern matching, static type checking, lazy evaluation.

I just read over the license, didn't see too weird except the part about the spec. If I read it correctly you can't modify shen if your modifications don't conform to the specification.

The problem is the license tries to say the same thing at least 3 times, and that results in tremendous ambiguity.

If you wanted to use it commercially and safely, you'd have to spend quite a bit on an IP lawyer with no guarantee he'd give you an OK. In a universe with so many good languages, many with much bigger communities (in part because of the license), with well understood and often tested in court licences, it's a non-starter.

The intent is fine, everybody's code will run on your port, modulo bugs, and is plainly stated in the last line of the licence: “Thou shalt not break the spec” It's the execution by someone who's a computer scientist, not a lawyer, nor very familiar with IP law.