Seeing Future in Fuel Cells, Toyota Ends Tesla Deal
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Re: Seeing Future in Fuel Cells, Toyota Ends Tesla Deal
#2First we got to hear the ICE proponents spreading FUD about Electric Vehicles, now we'll get to hear Electric Vehicle proponents spreading FUD about fuel cells.
Re: Seeing Future in Fuel Cells, Toyota Ends Tesla Deal
#3First we got to hear the ICE proponents spreading FUD about Electric Vehicles, now we'll get to hear Electric Vehicle proponents spreading FUD about fuel cells.
Fuel cell vehicles have never made any sense. It's still being turned into electricity anyway, so it's still an electric vehicle. There happens to already be a distribution infrastructure for electricity almost everywhere. The same can't be said for hydrogen.
According to the US Department of Energy, there are eleven public hydrogen stations in the US, almost all in Los Angeles. There are more compressed natural gas stations in my state alone.
Re: Seeing Future in Fuel Cells, Toyota Ends Tesla Deal
#4First we got to hear the ICE proponents spreading FUD about Electric Vehicles, now we'll get to hear Electric Vehicle proponents spreading FUD about fuel cells.
Fuel cell vehicles have never made any sense. It's still being turned into electricity anyway, so it's still an electric vehicle. There happens to already be a distribution infrastructure for electricity almost everywhere. The same can't be said for hydrogen. According to the US Department of Energy, there are eleven public hydrogen stations in the US, almost all in Los Angeles. There are more compressed natural gas…
I think the real question to me is about how much energy can be stored in a fuel cell vs the current available batteries.
Re: Seeing Future in Fuel Cells, Toyota Ends Tesla Deal
#5I would love to hear what the tipping point was for fuel cells. I suspect Toyota doesn't believe that battery technology will get the point that recharging gets close to normal gas station stops where hydrogen might.
Last I heard Hydrogen was still problematic in winter cold just like batteries.
Re: Seeing Future in Fuel Cells, Toyota Ends Tesla Deal
#6First we got to hear the ICE proponents spreading FUD about Electric Vehicles, now we'll get to hear Electric Vehicle proponents spreading FUD about fuel cells.
Fuel cell vehicles have never made any sense. It's still being turned into electricity anyway, so it's still an electric vehicle. There happens to already be a distribution infrastructure for electricity almost everywhere. The same can't be said for hydrogen. According to the US Department of Energy, there are eleven public hydrogen stations in the US, almost all in Los Angeles. There are more compressed natural gas…
"Fuel cell vehicles have never made any sense."
They have in the sense that I go to a station and fill up then leave in a reasonable amount of time. I don't have to alter my driving habits from the last 50+ years.
Re: Seeing Future in Fuel Cells, Toyota Ends Tesla Deal
#7The RAV4 ev is a pure compliance car. It's only sold in California, it's a 3rd party drivetrain and battery bolted onto the frame for a gas guzzler SUV.
So of course it's a terrible product. The only thing it excels at is getting Toyota enough ZEV credits. They recently changed the credit scheme, so now Toyota is switching to that:
http://insideevs.com/carb-zev-program-changes-tesla-takes-la...
Re: Seeing Future in Fuel Cells, Toyota Ends Tesla Deal
#8Earlier quoted context omitted.
Fuel cell vehicles have never made any sense. It's still being turned into electricity anyway, so it's still an electric vehicle. There happens to already be a distribution infrastructure for electricity almost everywhere. The same can't be said for hydrogen. According to the US Department of Energy, there are eleven public hydrogen stations in the US, almost all in Los Angeles. There are more compressed natural gas…
"Fuel cell vehicles have never made any sense." They have in the sense that I go to a station and fill up then leave in a reasonable amount of time. I don't have to alter my driving habits from the last 50+ years.
You go to what station? The one a thousand miles away in California?
With an EV, you can "fill up" in your own garage every night, or even while parked at work.
Re: Seeing Future in Fuel Cells, Toyota Ends Tesla Deal
#9Earlier quoted context omitted.
Fuel cell vehicles have never made any sense. It's still being turned into electricity anyway, so it's still an electric vehicle. There happens to already be a distribution infrastructure for electricity almost everywhere. The same can't be said for hydrogen. According to the US Department of Energy, there are eleven public hydrogen stations in the US, almost all in Los Angeles. There are more compressed natural gas…
"Fuel cell vehicles have never made any sense." They have in the sense that I go to a station and fill up then leave in a reasonable amount of time. I don't have to alter my driving habits from the last 50+ years.
Have you used a vehicle powered by natural gas? I have. For safety reasons, in many places you have to get out of the vehicle while it is being refuelled (the cylinder gets really hot!). And that is a change from your 50+ years driving habit. It also takes longer than a comparable gas pump (even if it is measured in single digit minutes). The gas gauge also reads differently (my guess is due to pressure decreases as gas is consumed).
You can't really expect to radically change tech and have the entire experience be the same.
Not to mention that the only thing preventing one from filling up a tank the way they do with gasoline is battery technology. If they are improved (graphene capacitors?), almost nothing needs to change in the grid.
[EDIT: I am comparing the hydrogen gas stations (which are so rare that might not even exist) to the experience of refilling a compressed natural gas vehicle. It is the closest real world parallel I can think of.]
Re: Seeing Future in Fuel Cells, Toyota Ends Tesla Deal
#10This is really surprising. What are they thinking? Hydrogen fuel cells STILL have not been proven to be a viable power source for cars. Electricity has been validated time and time again - even before Tesla, there was the EV1. And now the technology is really starting to scale in production volume and performance, along with the infrastructure.
Even if they can make a hydrogen vehicle with equal, or even slightly greater performance than an electric of the same cost, then they still need to solve the problem of the hydrogen infrastructure. That's really hard. You can generate it on site, but the equipment to do so is expensive and complex.
I think Toyota just doesn't want to compete with Tesla.