ATF uses rogue tactics in storefront stings across nation

mortyseinfeld wrote: post #3

This is what you get when people keep on voting in big government types all in the name of safety, security and social justice.

Don't conflate things that are different.

The libertarian two axis view of politics is still far too simple, but it's a start: plenty of people who rail against "big government" support the drug war, while plenty of people who like redistribution are adamantly against it.*

As long as you don't get that point, you're working with a seriously limited view of politics.

* If you really want to blow your mind, there are people who like redistribution, hate the drug war, and also think the government should significantly decrease its economic regulation.

Edit: slightly nicer phrasing.

Re: ATF uses rogue tactics in storefront stings across nation

#7

Post by w1ntermute » Mon, Dec 30, 2013, 6:15 PM UTC

hyperpape wrote: post #6

mortyseinfeld wrote: post #3

This is what you get when people keep on voting in big government types all in the name of safety, security and social justice.

Don't conflate things that are different. The libertarian two axis view of politics is still far too simple, but it's a start: plenty of people who rail against "big government" support the drug war, while plenty of people who like redistribution are adamantly against it.* As long as you don't get that point, you're working with a seriously limited view of politics. * If you really want to blow your mind, there are p…

> plenty of people who rail against "big government" support the drug war, while plenty of people who like redistribution are adamantly against it.*

Because no one actually cares about "big" or "small" government, they care about using the government to impose their beliefs on other people, whether those beliefs are conservative or liberal in nature. Both liberals and conservatives are actually for "big government", it's just that conservatives also lie about being for "small government". Liberals want the government to take money from the rich and give it to the poor, while conservatives want the government to wage war on drugs (read: ethnic minorities), other countries, women's rights, etc.

But in the end, it's those with connections that are able to skim money off the top of all these transactions and laugh all the way to the bank. Obama allocated $607 billion for defense-related spending last Thursday - $30 billion more than was in the recent budget deal passed by Congress. So actually, the "liberals" are also supporting the military-industrial complex too.

Re: ATF uses rogue tactics in storefront stings across nation

#8

Post by drzaiusapelord » Mon, Dec 30, 2013, 6:19 PM UTC

mortyseinfeld wrote: post #3

This is what you get when people keep on voting in big government types all in the name of safety, security and social justice.

Size is irrelevant. When you declare your mission is a 'war on drugs' you're going to end up losing, plain and simple. Meanwhile, very, very large government programs like the NHS do well and provide healthcare to millions in an affordable way with great outcomes.

There's something very lazy about arguing about government size. Its just dumb simpleminded platitudes that libertarians pat each other on the back for, but don't really say anything.

Re: ATF uses rogue tactics in storefront stings across nation

#9

Post by viraptor » Mon, Dec 30, 2013, 6:21 PM UTC

So what they're doing in general goes in the direction completely opposite to what the broken windows theory would suggest... It seems really weird to me - it's one thing to try to be friendly with someone who's already planning a crime and something completely different when you're providing both incentive and funding for new crime (pawn shops).

Re: ATF uses rogue tactics in storefront stings across nation

#10

Post by dinkumthinkum » Mon, Dec 30, 2013, 6:21 PM UTC

So, this article is not biased at all ... It's pretty shoddy reporting/editorializing. These zany anecdotes are pretty outlandish but why is there only one or two sentences per anecdote? Surely, in this anti-Obama rant, we could hav some details?