Live data from Hacker News

The Unknotting Number Is Not Additive

divisbyzero.com

1–10 of 80 posts

Re: The Unknotting Number Is Not Additive

#3
Whenever I encounter this sort of abstract math (at least “abstract” for me) I start wondering what’s even “real”. Like, what is some foundational truth of reality vs. stuff we just made up and keep exploring.

Are these knots real? Are prime numbers real? Multiplication? Addition? Are natural numbers really “natural”?

For example, one thing that always seemed bizarre to me for as long as I can remember is Pi. If circles are natural and numbers are natural, then why does their relationship seem so unnatural and arbitrary?

You could imagine some advanced alien civilization, maybe in a completely different universe, that isn’t even aware of these concepts. But does it make them any less real?

Sorry for rambling off topic like a meth addict, just hoping someone can enlighten me.

Re: The Unknotting Number Is Not Additive

#4
post #3

Whenever I encounter this sort of abstract math (at least “abstract” for me) I start wondering what’s even “real”. Like, what is some foundational truth of reality vs. stuff we just made up and keep exploring. Are these knots real? Are prime numbers real? Multiplication? Addition? Are natural numbers really “natural”? For example, one thing that always seemed bizarre to me for as long as I can remember is Pi. If circ…

In the words of Kronecker: "God created the integers, all else is the work of man."

Re: The Unknotting Number Is Not Additive

#5
post #3

Whenever I encounter this sort of abstract math (at least “abstract” for me) I start wondering what’s even “real”. Like, what is some foundational truth of reality vs. stuff we just made up and keep exploring. Are these knots real? Are prime numbers real? Multiplication? Addition? Are natural numbers really “natural”? For example, one thing that always seemed bizarre to me for as long as I can remember is Pi. If circ…

I sometimes think about the same things. As of now, my best bet is that math is one of the disciplines studying exactly these questions.

Re: The Unknotting Number Is Not Additive

#6
post #3

Whenever I encounter this sort of abstract math (at least “abstract” for me) I start wondering what’s even “real”. Like, what is some foundational truth of reality vs. stuff we just made up and keep exploring. Are these knots real? Are prime numbers real? Multiplication? Addition? Are natural numbers really “natural”? For example, one thing that always seemed bizarre to me for as long as I can remember is Pi. If circ…

What is real? There are strong indications that what we experience as reality is an ilusion generated by what is usually refered to as the subconscious.

One could argue that knots are more real than numbers. It is hard to find two equal looking apples and talk about two apples, because it requires the abstraction that the apples are equal, while it is obvious that they are not. While, I guess, we all have had the experience of strugling with untying knots in strings.

Re: The Unknotting Number Is Not Additive

#7
post #3

Whenever I encounter this sort of abstract math (at least “abstract” for me) I start wondering what’s even “real”. Like, what is some foundational truth of reality vs. stuff we just made up and keep exploring. Are these knots real? Are prime numbers real? Multiplication? Addition? Are natural numbers really “natural”? For example, one thing that always seemed bizarre to me for as long as I can remember is Pi. If circ…

Philosophical problems regarding the fundamental nature of reality aside, this short clip is relevant to your question:

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCUK2zRTcOc

Translated transcript:

  Physics is a "Real Science". It deals with reality. Math is a structural science. It deals with the structure of thinking. These structures do not have to exist. They can exist, but they don't have to. That's a fundamental difference. The translation of mathematical concepts to reality is highly critical, I would say. You cannot just translate it directly, because this leads to such strange questions like "what would happen if we take the law of gravitation by old Newton and let r^2 go to zero?". Well, you can't! Because Heisenberg is standing down there.

Re: The Unknotting Number Is Not Additive

#8
I read the Quanta article on this when it came out. They show the knots, and they're simple enough that I was almost surprised that the counterexample hadn't been found before. But seeing the shockingly complicated unknotting procedure here makes it much clearer why it wasn't!

It's interesting that you have to first weave the knot around itself, which adds many more crossings. Only then do you get a the special unknotting that falsifies the conjecture.

Re: The Unknotting Number Is Not Additive

#9
post #3

Whenever I encounter this sort of abstract math (at least “abstract” for me) I start wondering what’s even “real”. Like, what is some foundational truth of reality vs. stuff we just made up and keep exploring. Are these knots real? Are prime numbers real? Multiplication? Addition? Are natural numbers really “natural”? For example, one thing that always seemed bizarre to me for as long as I can remember is Pi. If circ…

Yes these knots are real and can be experienced with a simple piece of rope.

The prime property of numbers is also very real, a number N is prime if and only if arranging N items on a rectangular, regular grid can only be done if one of the sides of the rectangle is 1. Multiplication and addition are even more simply realized.

The infinity of natural numbers is not as real, if what we mean by that is that we can directly experience it. It's a useful abstraction but there is, according to that abstraction, an infinity of "natural" numbers that mankind will not be able to ever write down, either as a number or as a formula. So infinity will always escape our immediate perception and remain fundamentally an abstraction.

Real numbers are some of the least real of the numbers we deal with in math. They turn out to be a very useful abstraction but we can only observe things that approximate them. A physical circle isn't exactly pi times its diameter up to infinity decimals, if only because there is a limit to the precision of our measurements.

To me the relationship between pi and numbers is not so unnatural but I have to look at a broader set of abstractions to make more sense of it, adding exponentials and complex numbers - in my opinion the fact that e^i.pi = 1 is a profound relationship between pi and natural numbers.

But abstractions get changed all the time. Math as an academic discipline hasn't been around for more than 10,000 years and in that course of time abstractions have changed. It's very likely that the concept of infinity wouldn't have made sense to anyone 5,000 years ago when numbers were primarily used for accounting. Even 500 years ago the concept of a number that is a square root of -1 wouldn't have made sense. Forget aliens from another planet, I'm pretty sure we wouldn't be able to comprehend 100th century math if somehow a textbook time-traveled to us.

Re: The Unknotting Number Is Not Additive

#10
post #3

Whenever I encounter this sort of abstract math (at least “abstract” for me) I start wondering what’s even “real”. Like, what is some foundational truth of reality vs. stuff we just made up and keep exploring. Are these knots real? Are prime numbers real? Multiplication? Addition? Are natural numbers really “natural”? For example, one thing that always seemed bizarre to me for as long as I can remember is Pi. If circ…

Theres always an xkcd : https://xkcd.com/435/
Post reply on HN