MVC is dead, it's time to MOVE on

#1

Post by cirwin » Mon, Jul 02, 2012, 5:27 PM UTC

MVC is dead, it's time to MOVE on
cirw.in

Re: MVC is dead, it's time to MOVE on

#2

Post by nicholassmith » Mon, Jul 02, 2012, 5:42 PM UTC

You know it's nice reading a criticism of something that has an alternative solution offered rather than just going "hey MVC is terrible and you're an idiot for using it".

I do however think there's still great benefits to MVC, if you're shovelling code into controllers and can't make it work like it should then MVC is not the right design pattern for the project. Like every other pattern it'll only work when it works, but MOVE sounds like an interesting addition that I might have a play with.

Re: MVC is dead, it's time to MOVE on

#3

Post by peter_l_downs » Mon, Jul 02, 2012, 5:44 PM UTC

Are there any MOVE frameworks yet? I very much like the idea, but one of my favorite tests for "correctness" in a program is to use it to build something. Although it could be (and probably is) a reflection on my lack of knowledge, I find myself "fighting" with MVC frameworks like backbone whenever I try to use them. I would love to see if MOVE would be any better.

Re: MVC is dead, it's time to MOVE on

#4

Post by swalsh » Mon, Jul 02, 2012, 5:47 PM UTC

peter_l_downs wrote: post #3

Are there any MOVE frameworks yet? I very much like the idea, but one of my favorite tests for "correctness" in a program is to use it to build something. Although it could be (and probably is) a reflection on my lack of knowledge, I find myself "fighting" with MVC frameworks like backbone whenever I try to use them. I would love to see if MOVE would be any better.

I feel like you could still accomplish this with existing frameworks, though it'll be a bit of a hack. Perhaps split the controller in half, for instance LoginOperations and LoginEvents

Re: MVC is dead, it's time to MOVE on

#5

Post by vasco » Mon, Jul 02, 2012, 5:50 PM UTC

This looks like a really good way to stop putting all your messy code into Controllers and start putting it into Operations.

The problem with messy code or where it lives will not go away because you think about it differently, you just have to either hire better people or spend more time and money refactoring.

Re: MVC is dead, it's time to MOVE on

#6

Post by rorrr » Mon, Jul 02, 2012, 5:52 PM UTC

So you renamed "controllers" to "operations".

Re: MVC is dead, it's time to MOVE on

#7

Post by wavephorm » Mon, Jul 02, 2012, 5:54 PM UTC

peter_l_downs wrote: post #3

Are there any MOVE frameworks yet? I very much like the idea, but one of my favorite tests for "correctness" in a program is to use it to build something. Although it could be (and probably is) a reflection on my lack of knowledge, I find myself "fighting" with MVC frameworks like backbone whenever I try to use them. I would love to see if MOVE would be any better.

I think the problem with most MVC frameworks is not the framework themselves, but that that the MVC design pattern should only be considered while refactoring existing working code. Starting right off the bat with a giant MVC boilerplate isn't necessary and may even be counter-productive.

I write my code initially as one monolithic controller, and then refactor my code into an MVC pattern. It doesn't take that long to move functions from one object an other, and now you're working with an already-functioning piece of code rather than guessing how things might work later on.

Re: MVC is dead, it's time to MOVE on

#8

Post by peter_l_downs » Mon, Jul 02, 2012, 5:55 PM UTC

wavephorm wrote: post #7

peter_l_downs wrote: post #3

Are there any MOVE frameworks yet? I very much like the idea, but one of my favorite tests for "correctness" in a program is to use it to build something. Although it could be (and probably is) a reflection on my lack of knowledge, I find myself "fighting" with MVC frameworks like backbone whenever I try to use them. I would love to see if MOVE would be any better.

I think the problem with most MVC frameworks is not the framework themselves, but that that the MVC design pattern should only be considered while refactoring existing working code. Starting right off the bat with a giant MVC boilerplate isn't necessary and may even be counter-productive. I write my code initially as one monolithic controller, and then refactor my code into an MVC pattern. It doesn't take that long t…

So this could be the part where I'm not that great a programmer, but the I've had trouble creating apps from scratch with MVC, not just refactoring existing code.

Re: MVC is dead, it's time to MOVE on

#9

Post by chaostheory » Mon, Jul 02, 2012, 5:57 PM UTC

peter_l_downs wrote: post #3

Are there any MOVE frameworks yet? I very much like the idea, but one of my favorite tests for "correctness" in a program is to use it to build something. Although it could be (and probably is) a reflection on my lack of knowledge, I find myself "fighting" with MVC frameworks like backbone whenever I try to use them. I would love to see if MOVE would be any better.

"Are there any MOVE frameworks yet? "

I don't think so, but I feel that Grails may be the closest thing currently. It has a concept of a Service construct that feels like an Operation. Then again I could be completely wrong.

Re: MVC is dead, it's time to MOVE on

#10

Post by cirwin » Mon, Jul 02, 2012, 5:59 PM UTC

vasco wrote: post #5

This looks like a really good way to stop putting all your messy code into Controllers and start putting it into Operations. The problem with messy code or where it lives will not go away because you think about it differently, you just have to either hire better people or spend more time and money refactoring.

The advantage of operations over controllers is the composability.

Whereas controllers have a pretty undefined lifetime, operations are finished when they're done. This means that operations can use each other to get work done, a pattern you don't see with controllers.