Two Ethereum DeFi traders just made $120M using a strategy called 'looping'
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Re: Two Ethereum DeFi traders just made $120M using a strategy called 'looping'
#2Re: Two Ethereum DeFi traders just made $120M using a strategy called 'looping'
#3This seems.. insane. What’s the interest rate and payment terms on these borrowed funds? I have $100k cash and need to buy a house.. maybe I just crypto loop to get 500k.
Re: Two Ethereum DeFi traders just made $120M using a strategy called 'looping'
#4If they are up 120M when ETH has gone up ~26% since it's low point of the last 30 days, they must have deposited ~150M to start with.
Looping 3 times, and borrowing ~80% of their deposit value each time (pretty close to the max for most defi protocols), they would have borrowed (likely in a stablecoin) 120M, then 96M, and finally 76M, giving them a total deposit of 442M worth of ETH against a borrow of 292M of the stablecoin.
After ETH went up by 26%, their initial 442M deposit is now worth 557M. Had the value of ETH gone down 21% at any point from the beginning of their levered position, their initial stake of 150M in ETH would have been liquidated by the protocol, so this is an incredibly risky play as you can imagine
The fact that such a large position likely moves the market does at least make it a little bit safer for them, but by that same token, unwinding their position will move the market in the other direction just as easily (so they might only see a 110M in profit if they tried to unwind entirely, at this article was written)
Re: Two Ethereum DeFi traders just made $120M using a strategy called 'looping'
#5Is it accurate that on these platforms one can deposit funds, borrow funds (using the deposit as collateral), deposit those borrowed funds, borrow more funds (using the deposited borrowed funds as collateral), etc. and this can 3-5x their money, and the only risk is a bankrun? This seems.. insane. What’s the interest rate and payment terms on these borrowed funds? I have $100k cash and need to buy a house.. maybe I j…
The interest rate usually varies based on available liquidity in the pool, so if they were borrowing 292M of stables, their interest rate could vary anywhere from 0.5-150% APY, depending on the protocol parameters and the available liquidity.
Usually (negative) APY when borrowing stablecoins (edit: on ethereum) would be closer to 1%, but as you can imagine, when lots of people withdraw liquidity to engage in the same kinds of tactics, the overall liquidity available for borrowers decreases, and then the interest rate adjusts to incentivize depositers (who can sometimes have stablecoin (positive) interest rates of >100%.
For reference, I deposited 200 USD of a stablecoin into a pool with low liquidity on a more niche lending protocol on a blockchain that is known for attracting people more inclined to leveraging, about 18 months ago, and I can withdraw 550 USD now based on the interest rate fluctuations (likely due to lots of people going long against the stables in that same period)
Right now on Compound, one of the most popular (and safest) lending protocols, one can get 9% APR for supplying USDC (which I believe to be one of the safest stablecoins)
As things turn around into more bearish territory, people will leverage the other direction and that interest rate will go down significantly (back to more like 1%) as people effectively short ETH and other tokens using the same mechanics (deposit a bunch of USDC, borrow a volatile crypto-asset, sell it for USDC, deposit more USDC, etc. Then if the price of that crypto-asset goes down significantly, you can repay your borrow balance at a fraction of the cost in USD terms)
Re: Two Ethereum DeFi traders just made $120M using a strategy called 'looping'
#6Is it accurate that on these platforms one can deposit funds, borrow funds (using the deposit as collateral), deposit those borrowed funds, borrow more funds (using the deposited borrowed funds as collateral), etc. and this can 3-5x their money, and the only risk is a bankrun? This seems.. insane. What’s the interest rate and payment terms on these borrowed funds? I have $100k cash and need to buy a house.. maybe I j…
Just to address this directly, you're probably much more likely to get liquidated than to be able to bring your balance up to 500K when leveraging. In fact, if you're leveraged very close to the liquidation rate, with a lot of money at stake, people may even make plays to move the market to get you over the liquidation line and then liquidate you.
I mentioned turning 200 USD into 550 USD based on a stablecoin deposit, but that was both incredible luck on my part (I deposit as things were starting to flip from bearish to bullish) as well as being a lower-liquidity protocol where interest rates could fluctuate much more wildly.
To be clear, my earnings would have been a much smaller percentage had I deposited 100K USD, because the increased liquidity in that protocol would have resulted in much lower supply rates due to much higher liquidity, so I may have seen something more like 5-20% APR in that meantime (which is still not bad to be fair).
Had I leveraged even a little bit (going short against a volatile crypto-asset basically), I would have certainly been liquidated as prices for those have mostly all mooned in that time.
Looping doesn't just let you walk away with the money, as you necessarily have to redeposit it into the protocol to borrow more against your deposit.
If you're considering leveraging because you need to buy a house, you almost definitely shouldn't leverage unless the 100K is worthless to you without another 400K on top of it, and therefore you don't mind the much more likely scenario where it gets evaporated by market fluctuations
Re: Two Ethereum DeFi traders just made $120M using a strategy called 'looping'
#7Is it accurate that on these platforms one can deposit funds, borrow funds (using the deposit as collateral), deposit those borrowed funds, borrow more funds (using the deposited borrowed funds as collateral), etc. and this can 3-5x their money, and the only risk is a bankrun? This seems.. insane. What’s the interest rate and payment terms on these borrowed funds? I have $100k cash and need to buy a house.. maybe I j…
At time t0, you deposit 100 ETH, and borrow 99 ethereum worth of USDT.
You loop that back into 99 ETH, and redeposit it. You have 199 ETH of assets, (99 EHT at time t0 of USDT) of debt (that you basically owe to yourself) - 100 ETH net, what you started with.
You can now borrow an additional 98.1 ETH worth of USDT that you could spend on a house - less than the 100ETH you started with.
Or you could redeposit that, to have 297.1 ETH total. But now, you can only borrow an additional 97.2 ETH.
The total leverage on your ETH/USDT trade goes up, but the amount you can take out of the system (to, say, buy a house) can only stay the same or go down at each step through the loop.
Re: Two Ethereum DeFi traders just made $120M using a strategy called 'looping'
#8Re: Two Ethereum DeFi traders just made $120M using a strategy called 'looping'
#9Even cashing 1/2 of it would pay for pretty much any lifestyle a person might want...
Re: Two Ethereum DeFi traders just made $120M using a strategy called 'looping'
#10Wouldn't a sane individual cash it in and retire at that point? Even cashing 1/2 of it would pay for pretty much any lifestyle a person might want...