It's time to give up on shaming big tech companies for their low tax rates
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Re: It's time to give up on shaming big tech companies for their low tax rates
#2It's not shaming them for their tax rates -- we should shame Congress for not raising taxes, if we all agree taxes should be higher on large corporations.
It's shaming them for legal, but unethical behavior.
There's a lot of behavior that falls into the area of "legal, but shitty." Large corporations gaming the system to avoid paying taxes falls into that.
Don't kid yourself that we can ever totally eliminate this kind of thing. It's a moving goalpost. You pass laws to stop one kind of thing, their highly paid attorneys and accountants will find something else. It's cheaper for them to pay smart people really well to find loopholes than it is for them to pay their legitimate tax rates.
If we all behaved the way corporations do -- sticking only to the letter of the law, and exploiting every other opportunity to better ourselves at the expense of everyone else around us -- the world would be a really awful place.
We have to point out this behavior and shame the corporations, because negative public opinion possibly affecting their bottom line is the only thing they will respond to.
Re: It's time to give up on shaming big tech companies for their low tax rates
#3Shaming big public companies brings more attention to the discussion, which is a good thing, but I've always felt the entire focus was misdirected.
How about ... spend less. Streamline that bloated money burning monstrosity called a government. "Who pays" is probably the last thing we should be talking about.
Re: It's time to give up on shaming big tech companies for their low tax rates
#4It's time there is an honest discussion internationally about the biggest shame of western capitalism, tax shelters. It's not just big tech, it's everywhere. What benefit does the world earn from this global sneaking around?
Re: It's time to give up on shaming big tech companies for their low tax rates
#5It's not shaming them for their tax rates -- we should shame Congress for not raising taxes, if we all agree taxes should be higher on large corporations. It's shaming them for legal, but unethical behavior. There's a lot of behavior that falls into the area of "legal, but shitty." Large corporations gaming the system to avoid paying taxes falls into that. Don't kid yourself that we can ever totally eliminate this ki…
The article's gist is that there is the "right"* thing to do and the pragmatic thing, something I've seen discussed on HN before [1]. The pragmatic thing is recognising that there's juicier fruit on lower branches, i.e. personal income and consumption, in terms of cost of securing the tax income and risk of adverse effects/the taxee wiggling out.
*I believe value destruction is unethical, sourcing my sense of ethics from the perspective of global long-run production. A company moving assets from the inefficient US government to its private, profitable book is thus good to me. This isn't to start a philosophical flame war on this but to point out that you can't assume this behaviour automatically falls into the "legal, but shitty" area for everyone.
Re: It's time to give up on shaming big tech companies for their low tax rates
#6Honestly I'd love to hate Big Corp for doing this. But this really is one of those "Don't Hate The Player - Hate the Game" kind of scenarios.
I may run a tiny LLC but I damn well try to get my tax burden down as low as possible too. I can't really fault the Apple's and Chevron's of the World for doing the same.
If we want substantive change in the tax system we should be shaming those in our Government who bend backwards to serve corporate interests.
Re: It's time to give up on shaming big tech companies for their low tax rates
#7How is it unethical for companies to legally pay low taxes? First, realize that a company's tax isn't money growing on trees. Companies pay these taxes by decreasing profits for shareholders, decreasing wages for employees, or increasing the prices of goods and services to consumers (and usually all three). Someone is hurt by collecting these taxes. The idea that government can then go on to spend this money in a way that is more beneficial to society than the cost imposed underlies the assumption that it somehow a good idea to take from some to benefit others.
Most people believe that the State must collect some taxes from its subjects, but is this corporate income tax the best method? Increasing the cost of goods essentially taxes consumers in a regressive manner, irrespective of their ability to bear these increased costs. Lowering wages of company employees discourages work and lowers the income taxes collected by the government on these reduced wages. Finally, reducing the profits of shareholders reduces the taxes that would have been collected on dividends and capital gains when the shares are sold; more significantly, reducing the value of investing in companies discourages the creation of wealth and jobs for all of us by reducing the incentives to start and invest in companies.
If you think it is unethical to pay few taxes (and realize that for the reasons in the previous paragraph all other countries of the world tax their companies at lower rates than the USA), then you must believe that it is somehow more ethical to pay higher taxes (than is actually owed). If this is so, why aren't you sending in double what you owe in taxes? By your own statements aren't you acting unethically?
Re: It's time to give up on shaming big tech companies for their low tax rates
#8It's not shaming them for their tax rates -- we should shame Congress for not raising taxes, if we all agree taxes should be higher on large corporations. It's shaming them for legal, but unethical behavior. There's a lot of behavior that falls into the area of "legal, but shitty." Large corporations gaming the system to avoid paying taxes falls into that. Don't kid yourself that we can ever totally eliminate this ki…
Is exploiting tax loopholes really unethical?
Some would argue that the government is the biggest waste of money there is. I'm not saying that's my belief, but let's entertain that thought for a minute. If you believe that the government wastes most, say 95%, of its money on stupid things that should never receive a dollar from anyone (like the war in Iraq, to pick a random one), and you believe that you personally can do more with that money in terms of "making the world a better place", then it follows that paying as little tax as possible is the ethical choice.
Let's take an example: Bill Gates. Bill Gates is currently the second richest man on earth, according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forbes_list_of_billionaires . Did he use all those tax schemes on his way there? You bet your bottom dollar he did. Now he's using this money directly to solve problems like curing Africa of Malaria. Do you think he's using that money more efficiently than a government programme would? I'd bet on that too.
Would the world be better off if the US government had $20b more and Bill Gates had $20b less? I don't think so. I think Bill Gates can use the money much more intelligently than the US government ever could.
So, is it unethical to pour less money into the pointless furnace of wasteful government?
I'm not saying this point of view is the only point of view out there. But to declare tax avoidance outright "unethical" is a failure in perspective.
Re: It's time to give up on shaming big tech companies for their low tax rates
#9Shaming big public companies brings more attention to the discussion, which is a good thing, but I've always felt the entire focus was misdirected. How about ... spend less. Streamline that bloated money burning monstrosity called a government. "Who pays" is probably the last thing we should be talking about.
What do you feel should be cut in government? Where do you feel that money is being misappropriated?
Re: It's time to give up on shaming big tech companies for their low tax rates
#10Shaming big public companies brings more attention to the discussion, which is a good thing, but I've always felt the entire focus was misdirected. How about ... spend less. Streamline that bloated money burning monstrosity called a government. "Who pays" is probably the last thing we should be talking about.
What do you feel should be cut in government? Where do you feel that money is being misappropriated?
Off the top of my head:
* Million dollar Vegas conferences? (Recent GSA scandal)
* Guantanamo Bay
* Unnecessary military bases all over the world