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Ask HN: Help me solve a dilemma, study in the US or take a job in the EU?

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Ask HN: Help me solve a dilemma, study in the US or take a job in the EU?

#1

Post by 698969 »

Hello HN,

I'm 20M from South Asia (not India). Got a near full-tuition scholarship from a T200 public university to study undergrad in the US. Total costs would come out to about $20k USD/year according to the university. (Somewhat common scholarship, and would still need help from family to cover the complete costs)

I have about a year of experience under my belt and recently joined a non-tech-focused startup in Brlin for work under the condition that I'll move there soon. And, I'm really confused on which way to go. I do not have a qualification yet, moving to a place where everyone has a Masters and I don't speak the language feels like it'd be a massive footgun in case I get laid off or if the startup has to liquidate.

The traditional wisdom that I'd read repeatedly until last year was job experience triumphs college and the opportunity cost is not worth it which is why I took the job, but I'm having second thoughts. Does that also apply to Europe?

Would you say this is still the case considering the events of last year? Does the compensation and tax differential across the pond make the investment worth it to join the US labor pool down the line?

I would like to be close to home and Europe would be more amenable to frequent travel, but I've read many European developers lament how they could effectively retire and return after working for just a few years if they could work in the states, how realistic is that?

Objectively which do you think will be the better option? The analysis paralysis is crushing me and any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Re: Ask HN: Help me solve a dilemma, study in the US or take a job in the EU?

#2

Post by reacharavindh »

It comes down to preferences and priorities. The decision is personal. Here are some aids.

US: + once you finish education, and if you start employment in tech sector, you get to make more money(I’d even dare to say more than 2x, considering taxes, geography etc).

+ for the tech sector, US is where the hotness is. More opportunities, fuel for ambition.

+ while single and young, US can get you a lot of disposable income(read - less likely to get sick footing a huge medical bill, or avoid expensive child care, or school fees of children)

+ language. You don’t need to spend your time learning a new language that you may or may not use in the long term.

- (cons)

- politics (depends on personal views of course. Ask yourself if you can bear a society in which Trump wins the elections)

- the odd chance that you get in an accident or get sick with a weird/expensive disease, you’re screwed.

- personal opinion - food, lifestyle, and quality of life is comparatively poorer in the US on average than in EU. Read obesity, fatty, ultra-processed and sugary foods.

- Geography - farther to South Asia than Europe.

- Guns (depends on your views)

EU:

+ Safer, more consciously biased towards better quality of life. More public transport, walking cities, higher quality super markets, and produce etc.

+ politics (left leaning compared to the US on average)

+ traveling and cultural diversity - as in you can travel across the continent as even weekend trips and experience rich and diverse cultures - Italy, Spain, Germany, Austria, Poland, Netherlands, Scandinavia, France - so many experiences to be had.

+ in the long term, you don’t need to be anxious about falling sick, losing your job, education for your children etc. Social system has your back for all the taxes you pay.

+ Easier and probably cheaper to travel to South Asia often.

+ You get real holiday(atleast. 4 weeks or upto 6 weeks per year) to travel and live your life while young instead of bunkering to earn money.

- you definitely won’t make as much as you would have in the US.

- language. Depends on where in Europe you go, you may need to spend considerable amount of time learning the language. It could be a fun experience depending on your attitude, but it is time nevertheless.

- lowered ambition. A personal opinion. Having living equal time at both US and EU, I’ve come to conclude that EU encourages stability and playing it safe while US encourages ambitious attitudes and gets the best out of you. It depends on what you are looking for, and what you enjoy.

Hope it helped atleast a little and didn’t add more dots to your analysis paralysis.

To tip the scales, I live in the EU.

Re: Ask HN: Help me solve a dilemma, study in the US or take a job in the EU?

#3

Post by dualogy »

Writing from Germany here. At your age of 20, getting a scholarship to study in the US, if your funding is solid, is a chance you should take almost no-matter-where-from IMO. If only for the college / campus life and living some years on a fundamentally culturally-and-otherwise different continent (OK granted, that's in both cases, US and EU).

Although it's unclear whether "joined a startup" means as co-founder, CxO, or some gig, might somewhat matter here.

As for "job experience triumphs college", for 90% of (even IT / dev) jobs that sounds like a ridiculous notion to me (the usually personally-interesting cutting-edge stuff is going to be both outside a job and most undergrad curriculums), regardless of how much edu quality may or may not have gone downhill in recent years. Sure, the big SV founder legends of yesteryear were mostly college drop-outs, but they weren't South Asians with a scholarship either. If their dropping-out had not paid off, they knew they could just return a few years later.

This stuff is so worth it. Even if there isn't much "college/campus life". My 3 years BSc. in the UK was pretty socially "isolated" except for a GF and her friend circle, but it was still totally worth it, slightly exotic and adventurous-feeling (20 years ago by now tho =) and had that college-town vibe I'd never known before, and with the workloads they had for students, I had a LOT of time to my own doings (whether freelancing or totally hobbyist — or in your case maybe, that startup or another, they come and go).

As for that Berlin non-tech startup? What are they even about, that might matter a bit here. There's an endless stream of rose-colored ventures cropping up and folding again all the time in Berlin (and other such "wanna-be startup capital of (insert county/country/continent)" cities), you know. I'd tell them of your unique opportunity and offer to continue remote + part-time for starters. Both are now much more culturally / business-wise acceptable, broadly, than ever before. If that's not good enough for them, split, else you can over time choose to "phase it down" or re-engage more-intensely as you like and time permits.

Also, gloom and doom (cultural-mood-and-zeitgeist-wise) once more proliferate and dominate on this old continent but especially this country currently (unlike say during most of the previous decade), but with that outlook direction Germany or east-of-it is always going to be a little extra-grim as a place-to-live on this continent IMO. I mean, for moving here.. anyone is welcome to, as far as I care, if that's their goal or need, but given the choice, I have a real hard time advertising it vs. countries / cultures like France, Italia, Spain, Portugal, even Britain.. That's a personal subjective bias tho =)

Re: Ask HN: Help me solve a dilemma, study in the US or take a job in the EU?

#4

Post by sjhdjshdjskhds »

Thinking too much about keywords. Let go of keywords.

Understand you will die one day. Not as a concept. But as the truth.

Keywords doesn't matter. Resume doesn't matter.

Do what you really want to do.

Don't think too much about future.

You are not in control of it.

Don't analyse too much. It's a scam by your egoic mind.

Just do what do you want to do.

Where will you choose to go if you don't survive 1 more year? Go there.

Re: Ask HN: Help me solve a dilemma, study in the US or take a job in the EU?

#5

Post by danielt3 »

Very very personal business here. Hardly an answer here will be able to asses every single aspect that matters to you. IMO, from a superficial point of view, if you are single, no kids and got yourself some sort of very disputed scholarship them I'd go for it, graduate and get a job in the EU, in your home country, whatever.

IMHO, after you graduate, you will have more experience (both technical and non-technical) and be able to find better jobs. And there will always be startups looking for good engineers....

Re: Ask HN: Help me solve a dilemma, study in the US or take a job in the EU?

#6

Post by morpheuskafka »

My perspective is limited as a US citizen who's never been to Europe, but what I would add is that international students here are under a lot of stress to find a job when they graduate so they can stay in the country. Of course choices are limited because not all companies sponsor. You can see entire lines of people disappear at the career fair when a company puts up a sign saying they aren't sponsoring visas this cycle.

The work visa system in the US seems to create this stress because there's no automatic transition between states. You get a fixed, short period of unlimited work after graduating but then you need a job to sponsor you, which will most likely be as a "nonimmigrant" that has to be renewed and updated when you change jobs. And that never converts to a green card on its own, the employer has to start over with a new process and prove that no US workers are available to do the job.

In other countries (not sure about Europe), it's more like you get a work visa the first time, you keep working for 5-7 years, then you automatically get a permanent residence and can change jobs freely (or retire, study, etc.).

You do have a valid concern about what happens if you job ends, but I think in that case a good backup plan is just to apply for schools in Europe. Not sure how the timing would work out with admission cycles or how strict they are about how long you can stay before finding a new job/switching to student though.

You could even see if the US university would be willing to defer your admission for a year to do a "gap year" of work experience? That's kinda sort of a thing in the US, so it's worth asking.

Re: Ask HN: Help me solve a dilemma, study in the US or take a job in the EU?

#7

Post by readthenotes1 »

Having a degree will make it much easier to work in different nations due to visa restrictions that sometimes require college degrees (though you might want to do some analysis on what the options are and how much they've changed since I last look into this).

There's an off chance you might learn something that you might not have otherwise if you take the college approach, however I'm not sure it's worth the cost.

Re: Ask HN: Help me solve a dilemma, study in the US or take a job in the EU?

#8

Post by wg0 »

I think in the long run (which is your early 30s and that's coming sooner than you think), you'd want stability.

So main thing to watch out for US is to have a stable path forward that does not kick you out in your mid to late twenties making you start from scratch from elsewhere.

US immigration policy it seems is pretty restrictive at the moment [0]

And as for German language, it is difficult in some ways but easier in some. Learning a language certainly takes time but it is not something that has not ever done by any human.

Good luck!

[0]. https://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/2023-03/2023-bier-...

Re: Ask HN: Help me solve a dilemma, study in the US or take a job in the EU?

#9

Post by ziddoap »

sjhdjshdjskhds wrote: post #4

Thinking too much about keywords. Let go of keywords. Understand you will die one day. Not as a concept. But as the truth. Keywords doesn't matter. Resume doesn't matter. Do what you really want to do. Don't think too much about future. You are not in control of it. Don't analyse too much. It's a scam by your egoic mind. Just do what do you want to do. Where will you choose to go if you don't survive 1 more year? Go…

"I'm deciding between X and Y, here are some of my specific concerns, anyone chime in?"

"You might die, you're not in control of the future, do what you want"

Neat list of platitudes, not really helpful here.

Re: Ask HN: Help me solve a dilemma, study in the US or take a job in the EU?

#10

Post by sjhdjshdjskhds »

ziddoap wrote: post #9
sjhdjshdjskhds wrote: post #4

Thinking too much about keywords. Let go of keywords. Understand you will die one day. Not as a concept. But as the truth. Keywords doesn't matter. Resume doesn't matter. Do what you really want to do. Don't think too much about future. You are not in control of it. Don't analyse too much. It's a scam by your egoic mind. Just do what do you want to do. Where will you choose to go if you don't survive 1 more year? Go…

"I'm deciding between X and Y, here are some of my specific concerns, anyone chime in?" "You might die, you're not in control of the future, do what you want" Neat list of platitudes, not really helpful here.

Concerns are just illusions of egoic mind who believe death is not real. There are no concerns in reality. Reality is binary. Either you are alive or not alive.
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