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Giant batteries drain economics of gas power plants

reuters.com

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Re: Giant batteries drain economics of gas power plants

#2
This is a great example of economics at work. Large-scale electricity storage solutions reduce the need for generating capacity from peak load to average load - reducing the demand by the crest factor of the grid. The majority of this extra generation capacity is currently filled by gas (that is incredibly easy to spool up and down in a matter of seconds). Reducing the demand for natural gas will also increase the cost of other fossil fuels (which are mined in the same place), and it's a virtuous loop...

Re: Giant batteries drain economics of gas power plants

#3
post #2

This is a great example of economics at work. Large-scale electricity storage solutions reduce the need for generating capacity from peak load to average load - reducing the demand by the crest factor of the grid. The majority of this extra generation capacity is currently filled by gas (that is incredibly easy to spool up and down in a matter of seconds). Reducing the demand for natural gas will also increase the co…

And given the sodium chemistries slowly showing up in production this seems like it will only continue to escalate going forward. It's a hopeful achievement.

Re: Giant batteries drain economics of gas power plants

#5
post #2

This is a great example of economics at work. Large-scale electricity storage solutions reduce the need for generating capacity from peak load to average load - reducing the demand by the crest factor of the grid. The majority of this extra generation capacity is currently filled by gas (that is incredibly easy to spool up and down in a matter of seconds). Reducing the demand for natural gas will also increase the co…

I know someone who worked in a gas plant and although it might take seconds once the plant is running (I don’t know), it takes multiple minutes to start it after being off.

In comparison, scaling from 0% to 100% load on battery storage takes 0,1 seconds, according to Tesla.

Re: Giant batteries drain economics of gas power plants

#6
The Lazard LCOE cost of unsubsidized solar/wind + storage has recently achieved parity with gas turbine combined cycle.

So the writing is on the wall for fossil fuels.

What's also important is that gas combined cycle kind of represented the end state of maximum power for minimum cost from fossil fuels. Wind and especially solar (perovskites, etc) and storage (sodium chemistries, etc) have lots of runway for further cost drops. So you might squeeze a couple percent out of gas combined cycle for LCOE in the next decade, but solar/wind may still drop by 50%.

So if you have a ten year view (which is what you have fore investment in power projects) fossil fuel projects (and alas nuclear, which is 6x more expensive than wind/solar) simply don't balance the sheet.

Lots of hope. Lots of work to do.

EDIT: response to "why do you think solar/wind have bigger runway to drop in price:" (I hit my post limit)

Wind can simply scale up more, and there are other designs coming online. Wind I don't have the holy-crap-this-is-still-coming thing.

Solar however has made its gains with silicon, but perovskites are simply dirt cheap to manufacture, IF they can eliminate lead and get them to last long enough. I'm spitballing, but perovskites will probably drop the cost by 50% long term in solar.

Solar also really hasn't developed large scale multijunction, and perovskites + silicon may enable that. Multijunction is how you get the higher efficiencies by capturing more wavelengths and the like.

As for gas turbine, they already are exceeding the carnot efficiencies by capturing downstream heat cycles and other tricks. And I think the other thing as an energy financeer I'd worry about is that any fossil fuel power generation has to be worried about an eventual carbon tax imposed.

As the political power of oil companies wanes as their economic strength withers away as EVs and alternative energy undermine their economic value proposition, their ability to keep the environmental lobby from imposing a proper externality tax on carbon emissions with falter.

So any gas generation power plant could overnight have their costs increased by 10-50% or maybe worse. Best case: you have to pay for bullshit offsets, which will probably increase costs 10-20%. Medium case: they have to explicitly pay for the carbon scrubbing/removal, probably 50% increase or more to the generation cost. Worst case: we realize that fossil fuels carbon taxes should include a cost to remove PREVIOUSLY UNTAXED carbon that is sitting in the atmosphere. So then the cost could be exhorbitantly increased.

Likely SOMETHING is coming that will increase the cost of fossil fuel power and fuels due to carbon removal. It will start small and increase as the political strength of oil / gas wanes.

Re: Giant batteries drain economics of gas power plants

#7
post #2

This is a great example of economics at work. Large-scale electricity storage solutions reduce the need for generating capacity from peak load to average load - reducing the demand by the crest factor of the grid. The majority of this extra generation capacity is currently filled by gas (that is incredibly easy to spool up and down in a matter of seconds). Reducing the demand for natural gas will also increase the co…

Sort of. Thermal generation provides grid services that they get paid for. This revenue is substantial. This means when frequency sags, gas plants were traditionally called on to ramp quickly to maintain grid inertia. Battery storage can do this ("fast frequency response") in milliseconds (vs minutes or tens of minutes for thermal generation, where fuel must be added and momentum of spinning turbines added to), and is eating this valuable revenue distinct from energy arbitrage (charging when power is cheap, free, or negative priced, and discharging when energy prices are higher). This helps kill the economic case for thermal generators, accelerating their phase out.

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fenrg.2022.9717...

https://www.sandia.gov/files/ess/EESAT/2002_papers/00015.pdf

https://www.pv-magazine.com/2022/07/27/tesla-big-battery-beg...

https://www.energy-storage.news/batteries-earn-big-in-europe...

Re: Giant batteries drain economics of gas power plants

#8
For the price of a gas power plant you can buy some *serious amount* of LiFePo4 batteries, and Sodium Ion batteries are now also slowly hitting the market.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38361094

At some point we may still need small gas power plants to charge the batteries but how many days a year would we have to do that?

It may be a touchy subject, but to me Nuclear power is absolutely not the future because for the money you can deploy so much renewables, including batteries, it just doesn't make sense. And they are never on time and on budget.

Re: Giant batteries drain economics of gas power plants

#9
It would be neat to see an alternate universe where there was zero corporate welfare for petroleum and for solar/wind/tidal/hydro. I imagine that in such a world, renewables would have become the default sometime in the 70s and millions of lives would have been saved due to fewer oil wars and cleaner air.

Re: Giant batteries drain economics of gas power plants

#10
post #2

This is a great example of economics at work. Large-scale electricity storage solutions reduce the need for generating capacity from peak load to average load - reducing the demand by the crest factor of the grid. The majority of this extra generation capacity is currently filled by gas (that is incredibly easy to spool up and down in a matter of seconds). Reducing the demand for natural gas will also increase the co…

Glad to see this finally happening. This goal was definitely part of the appeal when I was working on the Autobidder team at Tesla!

The regulations have some work to do catch up to allowing batteries to operate in a straightforward manner. For example, the big battery we launched in Texas had to be registered as both a generator and a controllable load with all sorts of weird issues around switching from discharging (being a generator) to charging (being a load) that a battery wants to do all the time. We found engineering solutions to them, but it's even better that the market operators are working on properly recognizing batteries as their own unique asset with their own advantages and challenges.

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