The XY Problem (2014)
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The XY Problem (2014)
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Re: The XY Problem (2014)
#2In my life experience, 95% of the troubles with the XY problem stem from the fact that the people are not aware that they have over-fixated on the potential solution Y for the problem X.
They quickly assumed it, solidified it in their heads, and then most of the time spent with them is allocated to making them disentangle Y from X.
Once that happens, the solution has usually presented itself already at this point -- because the disentangling process involved a healthy amount of discussion.
Re: The XY Problem (2014)
#3Example 1 is fantastic in that it clearly conveys how to avoid an oft forgotten portion of the XY problem: the XY problem problem. Personally, I think the amount of time spent attempting a literal answer before inquiring along the lines of if it's an XY problem should be proportional to the latency of the communication. Talking through a scenario where it turns out it wasn't an XY problem isn't really much of an inconvenience to do in person. Talking through the same scenario in a forum or email can be grating.
Re: The XY Problem (2014)
#4We have a phrase to cut through this at work: "WAYRTTD".
Someone will post a question and immediately below it, clarify why they think that'll solve their problem. e.g:
> How do you assert that a jest mock was called?
> WAYRTTD: My test passes, but I'm not sure function X was called and I'm worried it's passing anyway.
Helps keep people on the right tracks more often than not.
Re: The XY Problem (2014)
#5There’s always the running joke about people on SO claiming it’s a XY problem when it’s not. Alas, I encounter so many times when the OP did have an XY problem, the answers then solve the actual problem, but I never had an XY problem, have the problem in the title of the post (which no one solved or cared about), and leave without a solution. I wish moderators would adjust titles on SO questions that get updated to a different question.
And funnily enough, all threads for this submission have the complaint about the reverse XY problem at the top…
Re: The XY Problem (2014)
#62015, 70 comments: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10023882
2019, 158 comments: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20068686
2021, 107 comments: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27061704
Re: The XY Problem (2014)
#7In my life experience, 95% of the troubles with the XY problem stem from the fact that the people are not aware that they have over-fixated on the potential solution Y for the problem X. They quickly assumed it, solidified it in their heads, and then most of the time spent with them is allocated to making them disentangle Y from X. Once that happens, the solution has usually presented itself already at this point --…
Sometimes the entanglement happens because Y is the entire elevator pitch for the whole thing.
Get rid of Y, and you're left with "I used Z as intended and it solved the problem with some minor annoyances" or "Yeah, I just shaved it down a bit to fit and used epoxy, no need to CNC an adapter".
Especially when X isn't the actual problem. Sometimes the actual problem is "I've become obsessed with stuffing Y into something".
Re: The XY Problem (2014)
#8I often encounter the opposite. I would have a complex problem that I can legitimately solve by something reasonably simple yet I don’t posses the expertise on. Asking how to do Y, I need to spend an godawful amount of time wasting to convince people that no, it really is not an XY problem, and could we just focus on the literal problem description, which you could answer in like 3 minutes, instead of you trying to score points by being able to claim it’s an XY problem.
This is because I was not up front about all of the context of course, but to fully explain the context and constraints that I’m working in, which I have already synthesised into my original question, would take two days due to complexity of the problem.
Let’s just get on with the problem solving instead of playing the meta game.
(I understand that knowing more context might be necessary to answer the question. I am referring to situations where that is not the case)
Re: The XY Problem (2014)
#9I often encounter the opposite. I would have a complex problem that I can legitimately solve by something reasonably simple yet I don’t posses the expertise on. Asking how to do Y, I need to spend an godawful amount of time wasting to convince people that no, it really is not an XY problem, and could we just focus on the literal problem description, which you could answer in like 3 minutes, instead of you trying to s…
I like to call this the "YZ answer"; I'm asking Y, which is the actual question I have, but someone else tries to convince me that my "real" question is "Z" because they happen to know the answer to that.
Tangentially related, but does anyone else besides me have an irrationally strong dislike of the name "XY problem" for this phenomenon? I feel like that name could apply equally well to basically any problem where you have two things you could call "X and Y", which is...a lot of problems. Why not call this something like the "mistaken question" problem or the "incorrect premise" problem?
Re: The XY Problem (2014)
#10There’s always the running joke about people on SO claiming it’s a XY problem when it’s not. Alas, I encounter so many times when the OP did have an XY problem, the answers then solve the actual problem, but I never had an XY problem, have the problem in the title of the post (which no one solved or cared about), and leave without a solution. I wish moderators would adjust titles on SO questions that get updated to a…
Yeah, you really need to think two steps ahead and write out specifically "My problem is Y and not X, and the difference is ..."
I find good success writing in my question "question is similar to except I need this and that, which that solution doesn't provide"