Change my mind: Density increases local but decreases global prices
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Change my mind: Density increases local but decreases global prices
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Re: Change my mind: Density increases local but decreases global prices
#2Personally I’ve never believed that adding more houses decreases prices. Though that is true in theory, in practice what happens is:
1. Major housing developments are accompanied by more jobs than the units being built could serve.
2. Developments are accompanied by local initiatives to improve the neighborhood that take effect soon after.
3. The quality disparity in a given area results in people far higher than the neighborhood median income moving in, resulting in (2) and eventually (1).
I’ve yet to see anywhere on earth that’s both dense and cheap which I believe more or less proves the point. If building more houses really made things cheaper it would be trivial to prove: cities, which are denser, would be cheaper than the nearby suburbs. Across virtually every region this is not true, when adjusted for square footage.
The problem with the United States isn't that housing is too expensive - it's that housing is too big.
To that end I agree with this article. The area that has people leaving their (presumably less dense) locales will become cheaper, but those areas will also become less desirable and ultimately have fewer people. If that’s the case, the price decreases is not really relevant in the same way the price of housing in Oklahoma City is irrelevant to someone in Brooklyn.
That being said, post COVID is very different as commercial real estate is not nearly as lucrative. Who knows what will happen now.
Re: Change my mind: Density increases local but decreases global prices
#3Whenever thinking about density and prices, a worthwhile example to consider is Tokyo. Very dense, but housing prices are very affordable. Part of the reason, as I understand, is that Tokyo allows people to keep building (compare to San Francisco).
Re: Change my mind: Density increases local but decreases global prices
#4Whenever thinking about density and prices, a worthwhile example to consider is Tokyo. Very dense, but housing prices are very affordable. Part of the reason, as I understand, is that Tokyo allows people to keep building (compare to San Francisco).
> Very dense, but housing prices are very affordable
it's not, though. Tokyo is substantially more expensive than other cities in Japan. Tokyo is also more expensive than American cities when adjusted to per sq/ft rent and PPP.
"Tokyo is so cheap" is a meme at this point. Tokyo is cheap the same way having roommates is cheap (roommates are much, much rarer in Tokyo compared to NYC).
Re: Change my mind: Density increases local but decreases global prices
#5Personally I’ve never believed that adding more houses decreases prices. Though that is true in theory, in practice what happens is: 1. Major housing developments are accompanied by more jobs than the units being built could serve. 2. Developments are accompanied by local initiatives to improve the neighborhood that take effect soon after. 3. The quality disparity in a given area results in people far higher than the…
How would you take into account Vienna in the denseness and cheapness dimensions?
Re: Change my mind: Density increases local but decreases global prices
#6Personally I’ve never believed that adding more houses decreases prices. Though that is true in theory, in practice what happens is: 1. Major housing developments are accompanied by more jobs than the units being built could serve. 2. Developments are accompanied by local initiatives to improve the neighborhood that take effect soon after. 3. The quality disparity in a given area results in people far higher than the…
Even if it didn’t slow the price increases - just the fact that building more housing means that more people get to live where they want to live- isn’t that a good thing and enough reason to build?
And as you said, the neighbourhood gets improved - isn’t that a good thing?
Or are you saying that the solution to the housing crisis is to make cities as inhospitable as possible such that people are forced to live in the countryside?
Have you considered the effects that dense cities have on the ecological footprint, the welfare and the technological progress of a society?
Have you considered how allowing free movement - including into cities - increases human welfare and happiness?
Re: Change my mind: Density increases local but decreases global prices
#7Whenever thinking about density and prices, a worthwhile example to consider is Tokyo. Very dense, but housing prices are very affordable. Part of the reason, as I understand, is that Tokyo allows people to keep building (compare to San Francisco).
> Very dense, but housing prices are very affordable it's not, though. Tokyo is substantially more expensive than other cities in Japan. Tokyo is also more expensive than American cities when adjusted to per sq/ft rent and PPP. "Tokyo is so cheap" is a meme at this point. Tokyo is cheap the same way having roommates is cheap (roommates are much, much rarer in Tokyo compared to NYC).
But Tokyo has accommodated growth without rent increasing significantly. No US city can say the same (edit: zip1234 proves me wrong below.)
Re: Change my mind: Density increases local but decreases global prices
#8Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Very dense, but housing prices are very affordable it's not, though. Tokyo is substantially more expensive than other cities in Japan. Tokyo is also more expensive than American cities when adjusted to per sq/ft rent and PPP. "Tokyo is so cheap" is a meme at this point. Tokyo is cheap the same way having roommates is cheap (roommates are much, much rarer in Tokyo compared to NYC).
But Tokyo has accommodated growth without rent increasing significantly. No US city can say the same (edit: zip1234 proves me wrong below.)
Tokyo, and Japan, is a stagnant nation population wise and GDP wise. Not sure why people even bother using it as an example. Look no further than the USD:YEN conversion.
funny how no one can cite any other city. if the theory was true there should be dozens of examples.
Re: Change my mind: Density increases local but decreases global prices
#9Personally I’ve never believed that adding more houses decreases prices. Though that is true in theory, in practice what happens is: 1. Major housing developments are accompanied by more jobs than the units being built could serve. 2. Developments are accompanied by local initiatives to improve the neighborhood that take effect soon after. 3. The quality disparity in a given area results in people far higher than the…
> 1. Major housing developments are accompanied by more jobs than the units being built could serve.
Lets take your theory to be true.
Even if this is the case, it would still effectively cause housing prices to decrease, relative to the amount of money that people are making.
So, if density causes people's income to double, by having all these awesome and cool jobs, but housing prices only go up by 50%, this is still a massive win for the residents.
Re: Change my mind: Density increases local but decreases global prices
#10Whenever thinking about density and prices, a worthwhile example to consider is Tokyo. Very dense, but housing prices are very affordable. Part of the reason, as I understand, is that Tokyo allows people to keep building (compare to San Francisco).
> Very dense, but housing prices are very affordable it's not, though. Tokyo is substantially more expensive than other cities in Japan. Tokyo is also more expensive than American cities when adjusted to per sq/ft rent and PPP. "Tokyo is so cheap" is a meme at this point. Tokyo is cheap the same way having roommates is cheap (roommates are much, much rarer in Tokyo compared to NYC).
“Tokyo is cheap” is a new phrase to my ears. i’m more familiar with the meme of people posting 150sqft closets and saying “i wouldn’t live anywhere else, even if the rent was half the $2000/mo i pay now”.
truth looks to be somewhere in the middle, but interesting how the polar opposites can exist so close to each other.