Ancient Spartans didn’t kill ‘weak’ babies, new study argues
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Re: Ancient Spartans didn’t kill ‘weak’ babies, new study argues
#2I haven’t read the archeologist’s work. I did read the article. The archeologist claims that evidence across the Aegean and Athens particularly shows weak babies were cared for until death. That’s fine. However we’re not discussing Athenian nor general Aegean baby care. We’re discussing Spartan care. Nothing in the article (and I could have missed it) proved evidence, from digs, against the idea of infanticide by the Spartans.
Re: Ancient Spartans didn’t kill ‘weak’ babies, new study argues
#3As far as I can tell, infanticide was accepted in ancient Greece and Rome at a lot of points. Ancient historians did have a habit of making assumptions that previous societies, they might have assumed that infanticide was common in Sparta because to a later ancient Greek that would have been how they would think weeding out weakness would be done (and Spartans liked to give the impression that they have always been the toughest society ever), and the stories go that Spartans made a lot of decisions communally, so it would make sense for a council to inspect babies.
The article doesn't prove exposure never happened, just that it didn't always happen. I'm guessing that it would be most likely to occur in times of famine.
Re: Ancient Spartans didn’t kill ‘weak’ babies, new study argues
#4I haven’t read the archeologist’s work. I did read the article. The archeologist claims that evidence across the Aegean and Athens particularly shows weak babies were cared for until death. That’s fine. However we’re not discussing Athenian nor general Aegean baby care. We’re discussing Spartan care. Nothing in the article (and I could have missed it) proved evidence, from digs, against the idea of infanticide by the…
Indeed, except for the comment about the spartan king with weak legs, none of that was Sparta specific evidence.
Re: Ancient Spartans didn’t kill ‘weak’ babies, new study argues
#5I recently read the Lycurgus chapter of Plutarch's "Lives" and I guess I missed the baby killing part? Very little emphasis compared to there being no such thing as adultery in Sparta, or effectively getting rid of Money.
Re: Ancient Spartans didn’t kill ‘weak’ babies, new study argues
#6As far as I can tell, infanticide was accepted in ancient Greece and Rome at a lot of points. Ancient historians did have a habit of making assumptions that previous societies, they might have assumed that infanticide was common in Sparta because to a later ancient Greek that would have been how they would think weeding out weakness would be done (and Spartans liked to give the impression that they have always been t…
When we're talking about Spartans, we're talking about the Spartan aristocracy, no?
Halo's Spartans make sense if you think about them as a traumatized and brutalized society.
Re: Ancient Spartans didn’t kill ‘weak’ babies, new study argues
#7Infants with defects would suffer considerably more early mortality, even with the best care parents could give in ancient times.
Re: Ancient Spartans didn’t kill ‘weak’ babies, new study argues
#8I haven’t read the archeologist’s work. I did read the article. The archeologist claims that evidence across the Aegean and Athens particularly shows weak babies were cared for until death. That’s fine. However we’re not discussing Athenian nor general Aegean baby care. We’re discussing Spartan care. Nothing in the article (and I could have missed it) proved evidence, from digs, against the idea of infanticide by the…
Even within Sparta, proper Spartans didn't make up the majority of the population, so you'd still have to distinguish between Spartan infants and helot infants.
Re: Ancient Spartans didn’t kill ‘weak’ babies, new study argues
#9As far as I can tell, infanticide was accepted in ancient Greece and Rome at a lot of points. Ancient historians did have a habit of making assumptions that previous societies, they might have assumed that infanticide was common in Sparta because to a later ancient Greek that would have been how they would think weeding out weakness would be done (and Spartans liked to give the impression that they have always been t…
When we're talking about Spartans, we're talking about the Spartan aristocracy, no? Halo's Spartans make sense if you think about them as a traumatized and brutalized society.
> When we're talking about Spartans, we're talking about the Spartan aristocracy, no?
I am pretty sure you are right. To the ancient writers, slaves were all but invisible, except perhaps as a measure of a slave-holder's wealth, or when, like Spartacus, they upturned the 'natural order' of society, and lesser nominally-free persons were not much more thought of. A slave's child was a return on a slave-holder's investment (Thomas Jefferson wrote about his own slaves in these terms), and if they weren't useful for anything better, they could be used as beasts of burden until they died.
I don't know how the Spartans are portrayed in Halo, but Brett Devereaux make an interesting case (at least AFAIK, which is not much) that the Spartan aristocracy operated like a modern-day cult [1] (and he seems to accept that infanticide was part of that cult, though he does not have much to say about it.)
[1] https://acoup.blog/2019/08/16/collections-this-isnt-sparta-p...
Re: Ancient Spartans didn’t kill ‘weak’ babies, new study argues
#10I recently read the Lycurgus chapter of Plutarch's "Lives" and I guess I missed the baby killing part? Very little emphasis compared to there being no such thing as adultery in Sparta, or effectively getting rid of Money.
You missed it, or maybe your translation left it out? Search for 'Apothetae':
> Nor was it in the power of the father to dispose of the child as he thought fit; he was obliged to carry it before certain triers at a place called Lesche; these were some of the elders of the tribe to which the child belonged; their business it was carefully to view the infant, and, if they found it stout and well made, they gave order for its rearing, and allotted to it one of the nine thousand shares of land above mentioned for its maintenance, but, if they found it puny and ill-shaped, ordered it to be taken to what was called the Apothetae, a sort of chasm under Taygetus; as thinking it neither for the good of the child itself, nor for the public interest, that it should be brought up, if it did not, from the very outset, appear made to be healthy and vigorous.