Designing better batteries for electric vehicles
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Designing better batteries for electric vehicles
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Re: Designing better batteries for electric vehicles
#2Most of that is just relentless optimization by companies that have gone from small factories to operating multiple so-called Giga factories, i.e. factories producing multiple GWH worth of battery capacity. Tera factories are coming next. Tera factories are essential to be able to actually satisfy demand. Currently any battery that is produced finds its way to a product that probably has some kind of waiting list. Demand is that strong. Driving prices down below 100$/kwh is important for this as most cars don't need more than 50-70 kwh (i.e. 5000-7000$) worth of batteries. Tesla does not disclose their battery cost but they've been rumored to have long broken through that price point. Chinese manufacturers are selling cars below 5000$ in their domestic market already.
Solid state batteries will have to be cost competitive to be able to make a dent in that market. That will likely happen eventually but probably not in the next year. However, demand won't be an issue even at an initial premium price point. There are plenty of markets where it makes sense to pay a premium for a lighter, more efficient, safer battery. Prices will come down as that market matures. But that might take a decade or so.
Re: Designing better batteries for electric vehicles
#3Iterating on battery design is important but it's important to realize that existing batteries are already pretty good. More than good enough to be cost competitive with ICE vehicles over the life time of the vehicle in most classes of road transport (e-bikes to heavy trucks) and trending towards being cost competitive on purchase price as well in the next years and production price soon after (purchase price typical…
I mean they're not the end of the world and they are acceptable compared to e.g. the environmental damage done by the production and consumptions of petrol and diesel, but I feel like they still iterate on them a lot.
I mean the ideal here is not to just create an alternative to ICE's, but to come out on top. For a good while the only reason people went for an electric car besides idealism was subsidies. But if an electric car ends up being superior in every way - range, handling, cost - of an ICE car, they will compete ICE cars out of the market without subsidies or force.
Because at the moment it feels forced. Car manufacturers have already announced they will stop producing ICE cars in a decade or so.
Re: Designing better batteries for electric vehicles
#4Iterating on battery design is important but it's important to realize that existing batteries are already pretty good. More than good enough to be cost competitive with ICE vehicles over the life time of the vehicle in most classes of road transport (e-bikes to heavy trucks) and trending towards being cost competitive on purchase price as well in the next years and production price soon after (purchase price typical…
There's some practical concerns with current generation batteries though; use of rare earth materials, lithium, and fire hazards and risks in accidents. I mean they're not the end of the world and they are acceptable compared to e.g. the environmental damage done by the production and consumptions of petrol and diesel, but I feel like they still iterate on them a lot. I mean the ideal here is not to just create an al…
Which?
>But if an electric car ends up being superior in every way - range, handling, cost - of an ICE car, they will compete ICE cars out of the market without subsidies or force.
This is already the case.
Check BMW Series 3 sales (or any entry luxury sedan) against the Tesla Model 3. And how sales of Model Y are growing against comparable ICE midsized SUV. When Tesla release their compact cars (expected around 2023), it is game over. If you don't trust Tesla, see Porsche Taycan sales against their Panamera.
Re: Designing better batteries for electric vehicles
#5Earlier quoted context omitted.
There's some practical concerns with current generation batteries though; use of rare earth materials, lithium, and fire hazards and risks in accidents. I mean they're not the end of the world and they are acceptable compared to e.g. the environmental damage done by the production and consumptions of petrol and diesel, but I feel like they still iterate on them a lot. I mean the ideal here is not to just create an al…
>rare earth materials Which? >But if an electric car ends up being superior in every way - range, handling, cost - of an ICE car, they will compete ICE cars out of the market without subsidies or force. This is already the case. Check BMW Series 3 sales (or any entry luxury sedan) against the Tesla Model 3. And how sales of Model Y are growing against comparable ICE midsized SUV. When Tesla release their compact cars…
Re: Designing better batteries for electric vehicles
#6All "metallic" lithium cells still need some mechanical structure to hold lithium. So, at most you will get a half of the mass of graphite, given that graphite is already a quite lightweight material.
For the cost, the second most expensive part in the cell after the cathode is the separator. Close to a third of cell's cost can be the separator. Japanese currently have a near monopoly on high-end separators, with Chinese having the rest of the market.
Re: Designing better batteries for electric vehicles
#7Iterating on battery design is important but it's important to realize that existing batteries are already pretty good. More than good enough to be cost competitive with ICE vehicles over the life time of the vehicle in most classes of road transport (e-bikes to heavy trucks) and trending towards being cost competitive on purchase price as well in the next years and production price soon after (purchase price typical…
are you serius? do you really think it's "pretty good" the range electric vehicles have, compared to ICE ones, looking also at the added weight and the time needed to recharge / refuel?
Electric vehicles are not a fad, but the battery energy density it's still... in the "tolerable, at most" phase of the tecnology
just FYI I just buyed a plug-in hybrid car mostly because I don't think a electric only vehicle it's enough for today.
Re: Designing better batteries for electric vehicles
#8Iterating on battery design is important but it's important to realize that existing batteries are already pretty good. More than good enough to be cost competitive with ICE vehicles over the life time of the vehicle in most classes of road transport (e-bikes to heavy trucks) and trending towards being cost competitive on purchase price as well in the next years and production price soon after (purchase price typical…
> Iterating on battery design is important but it's important to realize that existing batteries are already pretty good. are you serius? do you really think it's "pretty good" the range electric vehicles have, compared to ICE ones, looking also at the added weight and the time needed to recharge / refuel? Electric vehicles are not a fad, but the battery energy density it's still... in the "tolerable, at most" phase…
Re: Designing better batteries for electric vehicles
#9Iterating on battery design is important but it's important to realize that existing batteries are already pretty good. More than good enough to be cost competitive with ICE vehicles over the life time of the vehicle in most classes of road transport (e-bikes to heavy trucks) and trending towards being cost competitive on purchase price as well in the next years and production price soon after (purchase price typical…
There's some practical concerns with current generation batteries though; use of rare earth materials, lithium, and fire hazards and risks in accidents. I mean they're not the end of the world and they are acceptable compared to e.g. the environmental damage done by the production and consumptions of petrol and diesel, but I feel like they still iterate on them a lot. I mean the ideal here is not to just create an al…
Interestingly, some rare earths used for EVs are also used for ICE cars and fuel production. For example cobalt is used for getting rid of sulfur in pretty large quantities as part of the oil refining process. The difference is that with EVs, recycling is both feasible and already common and expected to become a multi billion dollar business as actual volume of batteries ready to recycle becomes larger.
The article mentions battery yield as an issue without mentioning that e.g. Tesla recycles all their discarded cells. Why wouldn't they? It contains valuable materials.
ICE car demand is going to collapse before the EV market is ready to supply replacements. The reason is that people will anticipate the approaching point where that market is collapsing and will stop buying new ones because they expect the second hand value is going to be poor and because EVs are obviously better/cheaper. That's already happening. It's going to be a rough ride for manufacturers. That's why essentially all of them are ramping up investments in battery production right now: it's a survival strategy for when their existing revenue is drying up.
That in turn drives down battery prices; thus speeding the whole process up. Manufacturers are hoping for 2030 but planning for 2025.
Re: Designing better batteries for electric vehicles
#10Iterating on battery design is important but it's important to realize that existing batteries are already pretty good. More than good enough to be cost competitive with ICE vehicles over the life time of the vehicle in most classes of road transport (e-bikes to heavy trucks) and trending towards being cost competitive on purchase price as well in the next years and production price soon after (purchase price typical…
Seconding this. The current mainstream will hover at around 200-220 Wh/kg for a long time. It already does.
Cell energy densities above >200 Wh/kg were available for a long time, but even quite major car brands intentionally chose to not to use premium priced cells, and stayed on commodity grade ones.
Cells sold on the open market still have a quite big double digit markup. Only direct sales to EV makers go below $100 per kWh.
And yes, small cars for people only driving in the city make the most of cars sold around the world. Here, your observation is completely correct.
In China, even lead acid battery powered cars find buyers in small towns, and villages.
Dropping 100kg in lead, and structure from small cars with around 10kWh packs will make a big difference.
It's not Tesla whom the big automakers are afraid of, it's Wuling MiniEVs — a car for a city driver which petrol powered cars can't beat at $5000 pricepoint.