Richard Stallman FSF support/remove letter signature counts

john37386 wrote: post #4

Why is this post not flagged vs this one? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26646048 What is the reasoning at HN for allowing one side of the story and censuring the other side. Very disappointed at HN moderators...

It was posted just minutes ago. Also, flagging is done by users.

EDIT: As you can see it's dead now.

EDIT: And now it's back.

Re: Richard Stallman FSF support/remove letter signature counts

#7

Post by przmk » Wed, Mar 31, 2021, 12:45 PM UTC

mijoharas wrote: post #2

Can anyone provide any more context on this graph?

There are two letters currently being signed by people either for or against the removal of RMS from the FSF.

The against letter is here : https://github.com/rms-support-letter/rms-support-letter.git...

And the for is here : https://github.com/rms-open-letter/rms-open-letter.github.io

You can find the number of votes on the respective websites for each letter or by checking the number of merged pull requests.

Re: Richard Stallman FSF support/remove letter signature counts

#8

Post by enriquto » Wed, Mar 31, 2021, 12:45 PM UTC

nabla9 wrote: post #3

It this how HR issues are settled in free software? With pressure groups? Where I can sign to support impartial investigation.

> Where I can sign to support impartial investigation.

You can sign the "support" letter.

It says clearly that RMS is not above criticism, that it welcomes discussion on all the issues, but that the smear campaign supported by the other letter is unacceptable.

Besides, notice that the promoters of the pro-ostracization letter are not open for discussion. Any discussion or move towards a compromise (e.g., by questioning RMS's fit as a leader while rejecting the lies of the letter) is ruthlessly suppressed.

Re: Richard Stallman FSF support/remove letter signature counts

#9

Post by lettergram » Wed, Mar 31, 2021, 12:48 PM UTC

nabla9 wrote: post #3

It this how HR issues are settled in free software? With pressure groups? Where I can sign to support impartial investigation.

I think all the arguments about ostracizing him are open. Most are pretty out of context or admittedly he apologized for.

To me, this looks more like a group of people who don’t like RMS joining hands with industry to remove RMS AND THE ENTIRE FSF board.

RMS did nothing legally wrong, that’s why he’s not in prison and there’s no investigation. Because he took no actions.

From my perspective, the “ostracize RMS” crowd appear like bigots who are attacking someone with autism for personal gain. Yes he did something potentially inappropriate, he apologized and we should work on reforming.

If there’s no forgiveness for someone who had a different opinion (he didn’t act on anything, as far as we know), then there will be no quarter. No one wants to live in a world with no recourse.

Re: Richard Stallman FSF support/remove letter signature counts

#10

Post by ahelwer » Wed, Mar 31, 2021, 12:50 PM UTC

I've been talking with friends about this issue and it really seems to come down to this: for some reason "intermediate" consequences are just impossible to implement in bureaucracies or organizations in general. Clearly Stallman did some completely unacceptable things and that can't go unpunished. However, like in all organizations I've seen (especially universities or hospitals dealing with sexual harassment from profs/attendings) there are only two types of consequences available: absolutely nothing, or complete exile. The organization rallies to protect the offender over and over until eventually a tidal wave becomes overwhelming and the organization is forced to purge the offender completely. This is bad for everyone: bad for the people being abused (and who will be abused), bad for the organization's reputation, bad for the offender themselves as there is never incentive to correct their behavior! I don't really know whether it's possible to implement a system of "intermediate" consequences but the lack of such a relief valve does serious harm in the long term. Regrettably in this system, exiling the offender is preferable to nothing being done yet again.