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Hate Java? You’re fighting the wrong battle.

javacodegeeks.com

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Re: Hate Java? You’re fighting the wrong battle.

#2
Oddly missing the point for an article about missing the point.

Either you care about the future and prestige of your platform, or you don't (COBOL).

If you do care about the prestige of the JVM, the future is still definitely awesome. Scala, Clojure, JRuby and all of the other wonderful languages provide a common base for interoperability. That's pretty sweet.

Java the language, as a secure place to get a job is entirely separate from that. Making bank (ha) off of other people's past poor technology choices isn't a future for your tools. It may be an economic opportunity, but it's not a future.

And if all you care about is having a job and writing lines of code, sure, legacy code base work is fine. But some of us care about more.

Re: Hate Java? You’re fighting the wrong battle.

#5
#Using Java for serious jobs is like trying to take the skin off a rice pudding wearing boxing gloves. -- Tel Hudson

#Of all the great programmers I can think of, I know of only one who would voluntarily program in Java. And of all the great programmers I can think of who don't work for Sun, on Java, I know of zero. -- Paul Graham

#Java is the most distressing thing to happen to computing since MS-DOS. -- Alan Kay

#Java is, in many ways, C++--. -- Michael Feldman

#C++ is history repeated as tragedy. Java is history repeated as farce. -- Scott McKay

#Arguing that Java is better than C++ is like arguing that grasshoppers taste better than tree bark. -- Thant Tessman

#Like the creators of sitcoms or junk food or package tours, Java's designers were consciously designing a product for people not as smart as them. -- Paul Graham

#There are undoubtedly a lot of very intelligent people writing Java, better programmers than I will ever be. I just wish I knew why. -- Steve Holden

#The more of an IT flavor the job descriptions had, the less dangerous was the company. The safest kind were the ones that wanted Oracle experience. You never had to worry about those. You were also safe if they said they wanted C++ or Java developers. If they wanted Perl or Python programmers, that would be a bit frightening. If I had ever seen a job posting looking for Lisp hackers, I would have been really worried. -- Paul Graham

#In the best possible scenario Java will end up mostly like Eiffel but with extra warts because of insufficiently thoughtful early design. -- Matthew B Kennel

#The only thing going for java is that it's consuming trademark namespace. -- Boyd Roberts

#Java is the SUV of programming tools. A project done in Java will cost 5 times as much, take twice as long, and be harder to maintain than a project done in a scripting language such as PHP or Perl. ... But the programmers and managers using Java will feel good about themselves because they are using a tool that, in theory, has a lot of power for handling problems of tremendous complexity. Just like the suburbanite who drives his SUV to the 7-11 on a paved road but feels good because in theory he could climb a 45-degree dirt slope. -- Greenspun, Philip

#JAVA truly is the great equalizing software. It has reduced all computers to mediocrity and buggyness. - NASA's J-Track web site

#C and Java are different in the non-excitability department, though. With C, you don't get excited about it like you don't get excited about a good vintage wine, but with Java, you don't get excited about it like you don't get excited about taking out the garbage. -- Lamont Cranston (aka Jorden Mauro)

#Java is about as fun as an evening with 300 hornets in a 5m^2 room -- andguent

#If Java had true garbage collection, most programs would delete themselves upon execution. -- Robert Sewell

Java: write once, run away! -- Cinap Lenrek

Java is a DSL to transform big XML documents into long exception stack traces. -- Scott Bellware

#The definition of Hell is working with dates in Java, JDBC, and Oracle. Every single one of them screw it up. – Dick Wall CommunityOne 2007: Lunch with the Java Posse

#Java is like a variant of the game of Tetris in which none of the pieces can fill gaps created by the other pieces, so all you can do is pile them up endlessly. -- Steve Yegge (2007, Codes Worst Enemy)

#Whenever I write code in Java I feel like I'm filling out endless forms in triplicate. -- Joe Marshall (aka jrm)

Source http://harmful.cat-v.org/software/java

Re: Hate Java? You’re fighting the wrong battle.

#6
I don't hate Java, per se. I did a lot of Java coding from '96-'06. I went with it as it became the king of the 'enterprise'. What I realized later though is that you can't use Java very efficiently in a small shop (one or two guys).

Nowadays there are other languages and toolkits out there that bring me better joy on a daily basis. C-based languages are not the issue here (I love Objective-C), it's the frameworks and patterns that soured my interest in Java. IoC, dependency injection, xml config this, facade that - for today's speed of 'innovation' and time to market, the Java universe for development can be too big and slow.

Most of the people I've run into post-'06 don't use Java anymore. These are usually small startups (as I don't do enterprise anymore) and the names that always come out are Python, Php, Ruby/Rails, Obj-C, JS, and even Scala. In my mind this is telling of where things are going, just like the early days of Java when people still used Perl and C++ for web. I think Java's continual evolution (or at least usage of the JVM) into things like Scala and Clojure are good things. But it's glory days being at the forefront of web development are behind it.

Ultimately I think this as fine as every dog has its day. Someone will come up with the next greatest thing that everyone will flock to. But like all the other names I've mentioned, Java will be around in many shapes and forms because, like Cobol, some businesses and users will still need it.

Re: Hate Java? You’re fighting the wrong battle.

#7
>So what is the real problem in the this industry? Java, with its faults, has completely conquered web application programming

What? No. Not at all. Maybe, maybe I'll concede that the JVM, when configured properly, is well suited for the middle layer of a webstack, but to say that Java has completely conquered web application programming is just silly.

Re: Hate Java? You’re fighting the wrong battle.

#8
So, which battle are Java haters fighting?

Java is mostly-ubiquitous and is "good enough" for a number of common tasks, and has good enough structure for mediocre programmers working on important-but-uninteresting problems. As a result (and the blog author says this), there is enough hate-worthy Java code there, just as there used to be enough hate-worthy C and C++ code around, and there probably is enough hate-worthy COBOL and Ada code around, if you know where to look.

It's worth noting that the relationship between C++ and Java switched around in the last 12 years or so - before, C++ was the method of choice to write segfaulting bug-ridden Windows applications (MFC anyone?), whereas Java was a rather slow (as in, non-JIT-ted) language that was up and coming and was interesting because it combined familiar C-like syntax with garbage collection.

Fast forward, and we have not only smart pointers (which ease many headaches of non-garbage-collected C++) but also template metaprogramming which really took off and makes C++ much more palatable to the one-man-army approach (i.e., one smart guy who does work that would take several mediocre programmers otherwise). Java has also evolved - Java 1.2's List/Map/Set are much nicer than the old collections, and Java 1.5's generics help avoid much of the old ugliness - but it carefully avoids any constructs that would make it more useful for one-man-army stuff - where Rubyists and Pythonistas are monkey-patching metaclass decorators, the Java world has one or two libraries that do bytecode generation to do something useful, but nothing more magic.

People who hate Java are really out against the programmer-as-a-fungible-resource way of living where programming is treated like shoveling dirt instead of a creative activity. Programming is both - perspiration and inspiration - and some people will be allowed to chose their tools (Java or not) whereas other people are not or have to fight for it.

Re: Hate Java? You’re fighting the wrong battle.

#9
TL;DR (as I see it): Complaining about Java as a language is pointless, as all of the "new hotness" languages out there don't slay the old dragons of ancient business system languages like COBOL, which is where the author thinks people should be spending their time.

Re: Hate Java? You’re fighting the wrong battle.

#10
A lot of transactional systems are being written in Java already. So it's a matter of not being worth rewriting the working systems on production why Cobol is still alive.

Also a point concerning most language wars is that quite a few are initiated by people with interests on the contender; that is, the language authors, software vendors, etc.

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