Bundeskabinett approves draft law allowing trojans on phones to monitor WhatsApp

Note that this is not about backdoor requirements or abilities, but about QuellenTKÜ (english: source telecommunications surveillance), which involves getting a trojan onto end devices, either through hacking, like using a bought 0-day, or by breaking into houses of suspects. It already exists as a part of law enforcement in various German states. The proposed regulation is to allow this for a bunch of additional federal agencies as well.

A backdoor requirement like Australia has it would be the service vendor having to write their apps in a way that the apps can decrypt content on remote command. That goes much farther than expensively and riskily hacking the devices of suspects.

Link to the passed draft (German): https://www.bmi.bund.de/SharedDocs/downloads/DE/gesetzestext...

Re: Bundeskabinett approves draft law allowing trojans on phones to monitor WhatsApp

#5

Post by Barrin92 » Thu, Oct 22, 2020, 1:33 AM UTC

>Die Nachrichtendienste sollten in digitalen Bereich dieselben Möglichkeiten bekommen, die sie im analogen bereits haben

translated: "Intelligence agencies ought to have the same capacities in the digital sphere that they have in the analog world."

Going to be an unpopular opinion here but i agree with this. I don't think there is any precedent for impenetrable private communication legally or culturally. Capacity to say, tap a phone or surveil communication has existed, of course with a warrant and strict legal checks.

People who want to argue against this need to make a case why legal or cultural standards should adopt to a technology, rather than arguing from technological capacity backwards.

Re: Bundeskabinett approves draft law allowing trojans on phones to monitor WhatsApp

#6

Post by mqus » Thu, Oct 22, 2020, 1:38 AM UTC

reissbaker wrote: post #3

This doesn't seem like it "allows" a backdoor; it seems like it requires one. (IANAL, etc etc.) So much for the EU's vaunted privacy rights...

Afaict this article is not at all about backdoors(things whatsapp/facebook has to provide) but about device surveillance, putting itself between e2e and humans

Re: Bundeskabinett approves draft law allowing trojans on phones to monitor WhatsApp

#7

Post by golem14 » Thu, Oct 22, 2020, 1:39 AM UTC

reissbaker wrote: post #3

This doesn't seem like it "allows" a backdoor; it seems like it requires one. (IANAL, etc etc.) So much for the EU's vaunted privacy rights...

Tja: “Rules for thee but not for me”

Re: Bundeskabinett approves draft law allowing trojans on phones to monitor WhatsApp

#8

Post by StavrosK » Thu, Oct 22, 2020, 1:39 AM UTC

est31 wrote: post #4

Note that this is not about backdoor requirements or abilities, but about QuellenTKÜ (english: source telecommunications surveillance), which involves getting a trojan onto end devices, either through hacking, like using a bought 0-day, or by breaking into houses of suspects. It already exists as a part of law enforcement in various German states. The proposed regulation is to allow this for a bunch of additional fed…

So this is something like planting a microphone into your house so they can hear your conversations (with a warrant)? That doesn't really sound too bad, it's targeted and you have to go through the proper channels to get authorization.

Re: Bundeskabinett approves draft law allowing trojans on phones to monitor WhatsApp

#9

Post by LurkersWillLurk » Thu, Oct 22, 2020, 1:44 AM UTC

Barrin92 wrote: post #5

>Die Nachrichtendienste sollten in digitalen Bereich dieselben Möglichkeiten bekommen, die sie im analogen bereits haben translated: "Intelligence agencies ought to have the same capacities in the digital sphere that they have in the analog world." Going to be an unpopular opinion here but i agree with this. I don't think there is any precedent for impenetrable private communication legally or culturally. Capacity to…

Because the laws of physics trump the laws of the sovereign? I agree with the position that law enforcement should be able to attempt to access communications with a judicial warrant. I do not agree with a government mandate to use flawed encryption that would allow anyone to read my communications. It's questionable whether that would even accomplish their stated goals, and personally I doubt it.

Re: Bundeskabinett approves draft law allowing trojans on phones to monitor WhatsApp

#10

Post by dane-pgp » Thu, Oct 22, 2020, 1:46 AM UTC

Barrin92 wrote: post #5

>Die Nachrichtendienste sollten in digitalen Bereich dieselben Möglichkeiten bekommen, die sie im analogen bereits haben translated: "Intelligence agencies ought to have the same capacities in the digital sphere that they have in the analog world." Going to be an unpopular opinion here but i agree with this. I don't think there is any precedent for impenetrable private communication legally or culturally. Capacity to…

> I don't think there is any precedent for impenetrable private communication legally or culturally.

What about discussions between conspirators in the privacy of their own home? Should the government be allowed to mandate that telescreens be installed in everyone's homes, with the promise that they would only listen in when they have a secret warrant to do so?