Live data from Hacker News

'It's hard to find maintainers': Linus Torvalds ponders Linux's future

theregister.com

1–10 of 48 posts

Re: 'It's hard to find maintainers': Linus Torvalds ponders Linux's future

#3
For me, this is one of the most interesting aspects to the development of Linux, and one I've been studying for years at various levels.

Even though I don't understand a lick of most of the code, watching the lkml and the process itself is very quite interesting, however, there are a few ways to try and put the kernel in a better position in the future.

Each major release can be considered a "story", for example, the journey of WireGuard from inception to submitting it to the kernel, that's an entire process, involving many, many steps and employs an unlimited number of tools; meeting in person, email, VoIP, Slack and anything you can think of.

Conversations that turn into code are a vital part of kernel development, but I feel is less well known (after all, we just see code shuffling about git repos).

Each bit of code is possibly hours of work, represents many conversations, and yet, git cannot (and does not), preserve the history of how code reaches Linus' tree.

So, how can we improve this situation?

Document, document, document!!

I'd love to see someone like Greg Kroah-Hartman, David Miller, Stephen Rothwell et al document, extensively, how they do their work.

I'm talking about high resolution; screen captures, text, images, audio and anything else that we can preserve going forward, perhaps all neatly tucked away in a git repo and backed up many, many times.

Seriously, we're at risking of losing a core vital understanding of how people do their work, especially those who are core to the Kernel. Of course, people may develop new methods, but I feel the kernel is quite mature and the processes in theory are quite stable too (such as how Greg actually releases a stable kernel once a week).

Of course, not everything can be documented, older software gets older, and someone's favorite email client may not be transferable, but the general process can be.

So yes, this is something to think about and prepare for, otherwise it may hit the kernel quite hard.

Re: 'It's hard to find maintainers': Linus Torvalds ponders Linux's future

#4
I think Linus is at fault here. Having a PR process that requires sending a patch over email, email threads done with super old mailing list software, etc instead of the more modern workflow of using forks, PRs in a web UI, etc is tedious and annoying. Making kernel development and maintaining more accesible to younger people would increase the pool of potential maintainers.

Re: 'It's hard to find maintainers': Linus Torvalds ponders Linux's future

#5

I think Linus is at fault here. Having a PR process that requires sending a patch over email, email threads done with super old mailing list software, etc instead of the more modern workflow of using forks, PRs in a web UI, etc is tedious and annoying. Making kernel development and maintaining more accesible to younger people would increase the pool of potential maintainers.

Keep in mind that linux is a 25+ year old project with established practices which might well outlast fads of web-driven development which might change every few years. Yes, Github/etc provide a friendlier interface for newbies (and might well be worth considering seriously) but note that there is almost no open source project that is on the same scale of collaboration complexity as the linux kernel, and it is far from obvious that they would be well served by popular platforms. Not to mention the whole Bitkeeper SNAFU that came out of becoming dependent on a platform they did not control; they would be very reluctant to put themselves in such a vulnerable position again. Github can decide on a whim to de-platform certain projects/customers/users (and has demonstrated a willingness to do so).

Re: 'It's hard to find maintainers': Linus Torvalds ponders Linux's future

#6

I think Linus is at fault here. Having a PR process that requires sending a patch over email, email threads done with super old mailing list software, etc instead of the more modern workflow of using forks, PRs in a web UI, etc is tedious and annoying. Making kernel development and maintaining more accesible to younger people would increase the pool of potential maintainers.

I suspect he also deserves some of the “blame” but maybe not for the reasons you list. He has not exactly made the Linux kernel community a warm and welcoming place historically. Many people can probably think of more fun things to do than get publicly brow beaten by Linus

Re: 'It's hard to find maintainers': Linus Torvalds ponders Linux's future

#8
A few points irk me on "the beginning of the end" conjecture in modern technology, rather than focusing on "as one door closes, another one opens" philosophies that keep it all going.

If I were to do coffee with Linus, I would tell him to fork the kernel and cleancode a kernel for the future (and take the reins), while letting the complexities of the current kernel continue to flourish in its present form (possibly seen as letting the rope go in the middle of a heated tug-of-war, which needs to happen on a public stage more often).

The "in between the lines story" on Linux over the years looks like [they] have been thrust into a role of placating the miserable, instead of writing brilliant code (its happening outside of tech too).

As far as switching gears to salaried maintainers, OSS should start an ISP (core function) similar to AOL (maybe aspergers online) and be a HUB for accessing the fruits of their labor. It would be like bringing the earthlink/mindspring 110% support model back to life (a reputation for being stewards of all open tech, in addition to top notch support).

Just having an ad-free network as an option would be worth the price of admission.

Re: 'It's hard to find maintainers': Linus Torvalds ponders Linux's future

#9

I think Linus is at fault here. Having a PR process that requires sending a patch over email, email threads done with super old mailing list software, etc instead of the more modern workflow of using forks, PRs in a web UI, etc is tedious and annoying. Making kernel development and maintaining more accesible to younger people would increase the pool of potential maintainers.

I'm often confused as to how many people really have a potential future where they become motivated long term participants, but a few bumpy roads at the onset turn them off. And I don't just mean in kernel development, learning the guitar isn't fun either.

Who gets into software as a profession, and then lets a bad UI turn them away from a project? When so much of the valuable skillset in programming is understanding and navigating a possibility space where the UI isn't built yet? (And I'm sure some kernel contributors would argue it's more _unusual_ than actively _worse_).

I know this paints me as old and out of touch. I know this. But I think it still applies. When I look at my interns, the good developers tend not to be the ones tripped up by onboarding to systems and workflows that aren't exactly like the trendy development tools or what they saw in school.

Re: 'It's hard to find maintainers': Linus Torvalds ponders Linux's future

#10

I think Linus is at fault here. Having a PR process that requires sending a patch over email, email threads done with super old mailing list software, etc instead of the more modern workflow of using forks, PRs in a web UI, etc is tedious and annoying. Making kernel development and maintaining more accesible to younger people would increase the pool of potential maintainers.

Flip side is there is something to be said for the Kernel not jumping on whatever platform is hot this month.

Plus I suspect the crowd capable of contributing meaningfully is quite comfortable with low level old school tech.

Post reply on HN