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Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

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Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#1
Hey HN, I've noticed a huge uptick in the toxicity online in the last 5-7 years. Before, around 2010-2012, people who disagreed would usually leave it at that and walk away respectfully. Now, it seems like everyone treats everything as an argument or debate to be won at all costs. Even niche sites like HN are not immune.

So how do we fix this? I've heard some talk that upvote systems and algorithms might be at fault. Do we ditch them and go back to a literal timeline? Or is this more of a social problem that code can't solve? Let's hear some input on this, because I can't shake the feeling that tech isn't totally innocent in this mayhem.

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#2
Still on the tech side of things HN is doing quite well, with clever mechanics to downrank incendiary stuff, killing troll comments asap, etc. Combined with excellent, consistent moderation (courtesy dang et al).

With growing awareness + press coverage, those platforms who deliberately implemented bad algorithms to harvest maximum attention (FB, YT, TW) increasingly find it damages their brand image. There is an incentive to (at least marginally) improve their features / biz models.

Then there is digital literacy. We used to have netiquete and that can be taught. If you read the (very entertaining) article The Internet of Beefs [0] you'll see there is a solution by not getting involved in a beef, or extracting yourself if you got baited. Similarly it helps to know how to avoid trolls [1].

It will not be easy to change cultures large-scale. Many people just like to beef (there is a similarity with road rage too; people forget themselves online). Others enjoy starting beef wars for the lolz, or - more sinister - with strategic objectives.

At least we should be able to create more safe harbours, where people thrive from uplifting experiences online. Changing culture bit by bit.

[0] https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2020/01/16/the-internet-of-beefs/

[1] https://github.com/prettydiff/wisdom/blob/master/Avoiding_Tr...

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#6
There are many pervasive, interconnected issues and trends to it, so there's no simple or complete answer:

0. Behavior online doesn't arrive out of a vacuum. If people are miserable because they're working harder, making less and their society is in retreat, they're probably going to take out their frustrations out on the easiest targets.

1. Unplug from social and mainstream media because it doesn't have much value.

2. Stop demonizing, hating on groups of people and falling for the unthinking of mob tribalism, even rhetorically. Hate bad ideas, not people.

3. Realize that we're divided-and-conquered if we're going to let a few rich people and their corporate media keep us set against to each other. Solidarity is the only way.

4. Anonymity is good in small doses, but it's too easy for people to act unreasonably hiding behind it (cyberdisinhibitionism). DHH's company wrote a blog article about improving the quality of discussions with profile pictures and real names.

5. Stop and use every instance of it as a teachable moment, where feasible. It only works though if people have shame and can be brought around to the Golden Rule/empathy... it seems to me most parents these days aren't as involved in active parenting, so their kids run ferrel and so more people grow up to act more brutally and sociopathic. Furthermore, the current prevalence of parasitic vulture capitalism valuing myopic greed and selfishness above all else reinforces a disinterest in the concerns and well-being of others... which is antithetical to community and civilization.

6. There's nothing yet so far to replace the community function filled by religion, and so many people aren't interested in behaving themselves or doing right by their neighbors or strangers if they can get away with it.

7. More people have lost most of their hope about the future. For example, no healthy society has mass shootings/suicides nearly every day that no longer make the news.

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#7
I've been active online since 2000.

There was a theory in 2004, known as GIFT: Normal Person + Anonymity + Audience = Total Fuckwad

Guess what? People without anonymity are total fuckwads too - this happens on Facebook, Instagram and Twitch, in an era where you could probably find someone's personal details if you look hard enough.

I think the key is audience. Bullying feels good for a lot of people. Bullies will go for low hanging fruit where they won't be struck back.

You see people acting this way even in once helpful sites like Stack Overflow; downvotes will pull bullies in like a magnet. You see people picking on anti-vax, flat earthers, Justin Bieber, not so much because they do harm, but because they're easy targets to hold down.

Viral algorithms amplify this effect. It highlights bad news that everyone can join in and rage on. It's not a new thing; news channels have done this for decades.

We can't really fix it. I'm more a community nomad these days. It's easy to move on to other new and old communities, away from this effect. I've been happy with HN, Discord, and IRC lately.. IRC has picked up back to 500 people per channel, and it's probably no coincidence.

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#8
I don't think we should try to stop it. I like discussion groups where the only thing moderated is spam. Yes, you'll get a lot of noise - but they can also be the only source of discussion that lies outside the overton window.

I've found it easy to ignore content I don't like, but it is getting harder to find open discussion forums.

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#9
post #8

I don't think we should try to stop it. I like discussion groups where the only thing moderated is spam. Yes, you'll get a lot of noise - but they can also be the only source of discussion that lies outside the overton window. I've found it easy to ignore content I don't like, but it is getting harder to find open discussion forums.

>outside the overton window

I feel like what you describe here ... is the noise.

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#10
post #9
post #8

I don't think we should try to stop it. I like discussion groups where the only thing moderated is spam. Yes, you'll get a lot of noise - but they can also be the only source of discussion that lies outside the overton window. I've found it easy to ignore content I don't like, but it is getting harder to find open discussion forums.

>outside the overton window I feel like what you describe here ... is the noise.

Not everything outside the overton window is noise. It sure isn't all signal, though. It almost certainly has a higher proportion of noise. But it's also where the new directions for society are going to come from, for good or ill.
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